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Post by 1coyotemaster on Nov 26, 2014 10:49:12 GMT -5
Some other things to consider, with the given ballistics it took that bullet just short of 2 full seconds to reach 960 yards. (About 1.7 seconds) and if an animal decides to take a step at the time of trigger pull then where would that POI be?..... Deadeye eluded to wind drift and I know there was a dead wind proclaimed but a 1 mph cross wind pushes it 12 inches.... Just saying there were and are A LOT of variables to calculate and overcome to make that shot... Some good points to consider here. Anyone who has ever shot over 500 is aware that what the wind is doing at the bench might (and usually isn't) the same thing it's doing somewhere downrange due to a variety of factors. Keeping in mind that as a bullet slows it is even more subject to environmental demons. A switch or a lull has ruined a lot of nice groups and I am sure crippled a lot of game. I am of a mind that it all comes down to ones ethics, there are some here who could probably make that shot but most wouldn't attempt it for the obvious reasons. I won't congratulate or castigate--it's over and done.
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Post by jims on Nov 26, 2014 13:31:18 GMT -5
I have noticed if there is a SALE at a jewelry store the women tend to be moving quicker.
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Post by deadeye on Nov 26, 2014 17:01:46 GMT -5
Some other things to consider, with the given ballistics it took that bullet just short of 2 full seconds to reach 960 yards. (About 1.7 seconds) and if an animal decides to take a step at the time of trigger pull then where would that POI be?..... Deadeye eluded to wind drift and I know there was a dead wind proclaimed but a 1 mph cross wind pushes it 12 inches.... Just saying there were and are A LOT of variables to calculate and overcome to make that shot... OK, other things to consider: A deer can drop about 1 foot in 1/10 second at the sound of a bowstring; An arrow @ 300 fps will take more than 0.15 seconds to reach a deer at 15 yards; The sound of the bow will reach that same deer in 0.04 seconds; If that same deer decides to walk at the instant you release the arrow it will move about 5 inches for every mph it is moving. ( men walk at around 3 mph, woman clocked near jewelry stores seem to not move at all ) edge. I am not as clever as edge or jims but each share imo what I was trying to imply in my prior post, was trying to stay neutral not roughing some feathers & definetly not trying to judge as I probably would have sent one if i was in that moment. fwiw/respectively//that's why I say man `nice shot.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Nov 26, 2014 17:38:43 GMT -5
I have a customer that is in his mid 70's. He has some long range goals and he is full filling them a little each year. Keep in mind this man is a life time hunter and shooter. seen combat and is trained very well in long range shooting. He first came to me wanting a 7mm Rem Mag built to shoot 180 Berger VLD's. his goal was to kill an elk at 1000 yards. I built the rifle and with practice he was prepared to make that shot if it presented itself and the conditions were right. Anything inside of 1000 yards was a shot he would take. His elk stepped out at 1200 yards or so but with the wind conditions and the elk's urge to keep moving he couldn't get the shot off at 1000 yards. The elk was 715 yards before things worked out for him.
Next goal for this guy was to shoot a smaller target at 1000 yards so he asked me to build a 6.5X47 Lapua and he was now on a mission to get an Antelope at 1000 yards. This time he got much closer and shot this one at 970 yards.
Last week he came to my shop to pick up his latest build I did for him, This one is a 338 Lapua Rogue. His goal now is to take an Antelope at 1 Mile. Yes I said 1 mile, 5,280 feet or 1,760 yards. With practice I believe he can do this or get very close. Being retired and having plenty of time to practice and wait for the perfect shot I think that by this time next year he will send be a picture of him and his 338 Lapua Rogue with an Antelope at the 1760 yard mark. With practice, good equipment, and confidence that you can do it, you can do it. Here is a picture of the 338 Lapua Rouge.
Below are the three other rifles I built for him. Top is the 7m rem Mag, second is the 6.5X47 Lapua and the bottom rifle is a 6BR on a savage action..He enjoys long range shooting very much and I hope he reaches his goal of a 1760 yard kill.
Jeff.
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Post by edge on Nov 26, 2014 18:25:08 GMT -5
Looks like Groucho's nephew A mile is tough, the stability seems to be the real bogey. It takes a whole lot of BC and or velocity to get the round there and to still be supersonic. You know some folks want long range, some like very short, some want traditional and some want exotic weapons. IMO, as long as you leave me alone I pretty much don't care. Now I do not like it when the State lets a landowner hire snipers to come and shoot deer after dark which is what they let my neighbor do. Hey if I were allowed to or they reduced the herd during the Summer I might not be so annoyed. BUT, they sell me a license and set the rules. I scout and do my due diligence and my neighbor an non hunter wants the deer gone and petitions the State and they let them shoot the deer that I paid for the chance to shoot...and they took my money for that opportunity! edge.
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Post by markb317 on Nov 26, 2014 19:28:38 GMT -5
I have seen a lot of people shoot the mile target at the range I shoot at, it is a 12" square plate. They have hit it with everything from 6XC's to 50 cals. There are a lot that miss by just inches and others miss by feet but the second shot is usually pretty darn close. Anyone wanting to give it a try should check out Thunder Valley Precision. Great range to get dope and practice wind calls.
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Post by mtj555 on Nov 26, 2014 22:03:37 GMT -5
Mark, hope to check out that range. Looks like I am moving to Ohio for ROTC assignment in Kent.
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Post by deadeye on Nov 28, 2014 22:34:53 GMT -5
I have seen a lot of people shoot the mile target at the range I shoot at, it is a 12" square plate. They have hit it with everything from 6XC's to 50 cals. There are a lot that miss by just inches and others miss by feet but the second shot is usually pretty darn close. Anyone wanting to give it a try should check out Thunder Valley Precision. Great range to get dope and practice wind calls. mark- that is a great range & just maybe a great place to get a dmb gathering to shoot some short & long for anyone in that area that can make it work. have they enclosed or roofed/benches// from the tornado? ? would like to go after the mile gong with a rifle & possibly a mz just for fun!
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Post by markb317 on Nov 29, 2014 6:32:42 GMT -5
deadeye- no roof over benches yet. Tom is talking about doing a Short Course match that would be out to 600yds on 12" steel.Limiting it to like 20 shooters,would have to be shot prone unless someone brings a portable bench that can be setup quick.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Nov 29, 2014 11:56:20 GMT -5
I know plenty of people that shoot traditional archery and their max shot is probably 20 yards and poo poo compound and crossbows! I know many Daniel Boone types that believe that muzzleloaders should be flintlocks and only shoot real BP!....If you think the shooter in any story does not understand the limitations of his equipment then you should offer your insights, but IMO not in a demeaning manner. edge. I guess I fall into all of the groups above. I shot compounds for years and with a good cable bow setup 60 yards is consistently achievable. These days I shoot a longbow and I prefer to keep everything inside of 30 yards. I went the opposite with front stuffers and started with sidelocks as most here did. My fast twist guns will shoot to 200 yards with 400+ grain conicals and precision I feel good about when shooting at an animal; wind becomes the issue quickly though. That said I spend my time (in close to a 100 to 1 ratio) with smokeless muzzleloaders now. That said, if the law calls it a primitive season then that is what it is. If it is called Archery or Muzzleloader season the letter of the law should allow for modern advancements in sporting equipment. If one wished to hunt in a place that limits you to primitive equipment then you can go to Pennsylvania for flintlock season or apply for stickbow hunts on McAlester AAP. On to the question at hand. I have been on emergency leave in Colorado for the last week and had plenty of time to think about this post as I was not about to type it out on my phone. That's a good thing since it has allowed me to be more analytical in this response. It is sort of like when an e-mail at work pisses you off and you write that person an e-mail back. You are far better off to save it as a draft and change into some workout clothes at lunch and go run or hit the gym then take a look at the e-mail again after lunch and see if it still looks like a good idea to hit, "SEND". My issue with this type of shooting is as follows, topics 1 and 2 are the academic labor of others while 3 is based on my own life experience, education, and ethics: 1. Lethality of Long Range Shooting 2. Hit Probability 3. Accountability Lethality of Long Range Shooting: There are all kinds of formulas and rules for lethality and they provide good guidelines but are not what I would call scientific. They are all dependent upon velocity and mass although how they use them varies; some are energy based, others include momentum, etc. Most (if not all) fail to take into account bullet construction. All bullets require velocity to perform and all bullets must be of a construction that allows their momentum to carry them into or through vital organs (or in the event of a misplaced shot, through spine or major blood vessel). Since both energy and momentum are important you need a formula that accounts for both so that we can quantify lethality in a meaningful way. Enter the Matunas Optimal Game Weight Formula: OGW = V³W² * 1.5x10e-12 OGW = Weight in pounds of animal to be shot V = Velocity in fps W = Bullet weight in grains 1.5 * 10e-12 = unit cancelling constant I don't know what that deer weighed but lets say a whitetail buck on the small side is 130lbs and we want to know how far the OGW allows for a shot to be taken. We have all the data we need except for impact velocity which we can find: OGW = 130 W = 270 V³ = OGW / ( (W²) * (1.5x10e-12) ) V² = 130 / ( (270²) * (1.5x10e-12) ) V³ = 1188843164 V = ³√ 1188843164 V = 1059 fps Now use your favorite ballistic calculator to figure out at what distance the 270gn E-MAX with a (calculated at 2850fps) BC of .378 G1 retains 1059 fps and it should be in the vicinity of 725 yds. Re-work that BC to match the actual elevation correction dialed on because a BC of .378 G1 does not come close to matching that actual drag curve if he used 54.25 MOA from a 100 yards zero. I came up with this number based on average environmental data for NC over the last few weeks and manipulating the calculator to get the drag curve to match up with the actual drop data to match what the shot was taken with. The long and short of it is that if you are the kind of guy who believes in formulas then 960 yards is 130% ( or 1/3 again as far ) of the recommended limit given this set-up. As mentioned above this does not take into account bullet performance. Parker lists 1900-2400fps as the velocity range for the BE which is a thin jacket like the E-MAX. He does not mention whether 1900fps is the minimum velocity at muzzle or on impact. What I feel comfortable saying is that the E-MAX arrived on station with about the same performance as a .45 ACP and the bullet did not perform as expected. Additionally, not many wildlife agencies feel like the .45 ACP is an adequate deer round and that is why their are stipulations against using it. Yes, the E-MAX worked but not as it was intended to because it was asked to do something beyond its real capability. Hit Probability: There is a ton of math based on Root Sum Square to be done when figuring this out and I won't bore you (or force myself to type it out again) with it but basically you are accounting for your gun's precision, muzzle velocity variation, and wind uncertainty (dependent upon your ability to read wind and to what degree of accuracy; consider a Master Class shooter can read at +/- 2mph). It basically creates an elliptical contour (wider than tall due to wind uncertainty) and at 960 yds it doesn't look good for a muzzleloader with a 270gn E-MAX capable of the .6 MOA that was mentioned/assumed. The issue of the .6 MOA is that is not necessarily true based on the shot taken. It missed by 6" which is roughly .6 MOA. The problem with saying it is .6 MOA gun at 960 yards is that .6 MOA was on a radius which must be doubled and becomes 1.2 MOA which is good precision except that deer vitals stop being MOA around 800 yards. If you model the dispersion of a gun capable of .6 MOA to 960 yards given a flight time at 100 yards of .114 seconds (which is what I get on this load) and right at 2 seconds at 960 yards it comes to a minimum group size of 10.5 inches or 1.047 MOA. That means our real life 1.2 MOA is close to our minimum modeling of 1.047 MOA which is right at or slightly larger than deer vitals on a small whitetail. As it were it was outside of the vitals we are talking about but happened to make a lethal hit in the neck but outside of our intended target area. The shooting Jeff mentioned is made more certain by utilizing much more advantageous equipment. I also shoot a 7mm for long range work and high BC bullets get the job done more efficiently. Same can be said for the 6.5 and .338 he mentioned. I also shoot a lot of 175gn and 190gn .308 bullets that are superior to the bullets we shoot in the SML. The 6.5 and 7mm he mentioned will cover over 1300 yards with the same time of flight that the 270 E-MAX had at under 1000 yards. I mention this because wind drift is directly related to time of flight. I know for a fact that shooting a slower and lower BC bullet (in my experience it was a .224"/75gn OTM with a BC of .395 which is higher than the calculated BC of the 270 E-MAX) that anything past 700yds gets tough. I took them the 1000m Known Distance range one weekend to see if they (or a .224"/90gn VLD) were a viable trainer for long range work to save wear on my other barrels. That was an exercise in frustration and was told as much before I started that day. Based on a lot of shooting and a lot of conversations/training with others I have a rule I think is pretty solid. If it takes more than 8 MRAD of elevation and 2 MRAD in wind hold to make the hit, IT IS TOO FAR FOR A CERTAIN HIT. Take a look in any brand (S&B, Bushnell, Leupold, Nightforce, Vortex, etc.) that uses a reticle like the Horus, G2, or EBR and tell me why you can only see about 8-9 MRAD of elevation at the higher end powers most guys want to shoot long range with. A lot of experience went into those systems. Accountability: Accountability could easily bleed over into ethics but I will try to stay out of that except to say you will not see me shooting at a quadruped past about 500 yards and even then that is rarely necessary. When I say accountability I mean you are accountable to some higher power than yourself. In this case I will explain it from a professional standpoint since it was brought up in this discussion. This shot was equated to sniping. While sniping does involve the training and practice of long range shooting, marksmanship alone does not a sniper make. The best shooter I know changed my life with the statement, "You can't take your sniping seriously if you don't take your shooting seriously, and you can't take your shooting seriously if you don't shoot competitively". I can count on my fingers the number of snipers I personally know who shoot competitively. The rest don't shoot enough to tell you they can make a first round hit, on demand, past 800m, and not be lying. That means if you wish to be successful they need other tools. A well trained sniper is a master of fieldcraft and said fieldcraft is used to allow for a good approach that ends in a certain shot and the ability to do so while remaining undetected. Since a deer is almost assuredly not going to fire upon you if you are detected, the purpose of fieldcraft would transfer into hunting to allow for a stealthy approach into a position that allows for a certain shot. That is to say that hunting and sniping are active processes whereby intended quarry are observed and maneuvered on (could be a stalk or a static position) which offers a nearly 100% chance of success. The certainty of action is what produces accountability. It is a decision making process that allows you to mitigate risk and be able to accept responsibility for your actions. I, as a leader, underwrite small mistakes; they happen and if handled properly provide a learning point. Calculated bad decisions deserve, and are met with, swift reprisal. In today's climate any shot taken by a sniper is likely to be investigated and you had better be certain everyone agrees that what happened was appropriate because their is no room for error. Consider too that ethics of war have no place in civilized society. View the hunting and shooting world in the same light and one can draw similar conclusions. Hunting and shooting are regulated by Fish and Game Departments because the game animals we hunt do not belong to you. They belong to the entire tax paying public. That is why high fences are addressed by law; it is more about who owns the deer than about fair chase although fair chase is part of it. Fair chase is covered by law but where it is not, it is covered by other duly appointed authorities. The Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young organizations seem to be what people who care about antlers/horns care about and they set a lot of precedents when it comes to accountability for fair chase. Recently Boone and Crockett released a statement about their concern about long range "hunting". They are the keeper of the standard because hunting is our privilege, not a right by law. So you are accountable to the people, both the hunting and non-hunting public, in your part of supporting the privilege of maintaining the sport. To perform any act simply because you have the power to do so is wrong by nearly any ethical philosophy. When somebody becomes aware of your action you now have to become accountable and you will be judged by some standard; hopefully your position is defensible. It is ridiculous to that guns and hunting require as much lobbying as they do. Good accountability for actions could reduce that and thereby ensure a bright future. Conclusion: It worked out in this event and I am certain a lot of preparation went into the shot. You may disagree with the math and theory but things which are hard to account for require theoretical basis if you wish to have a working base knowledge. Only quality practice with that information can turn it into proven data. My personal understanding of spin stabilized projectile motion, thousands of rounds shot at long range, and my personal view of accountability would have required different equipment to make that shot with certainty or the discipline to pass on the shot.
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Post by rambler on Nov 29, 2014 12:23:00 GMT -5
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Post by edge on Nov 29, 2014 13:06:39 GMT -5
7mmfreak, your opinions are welcomed and duly noted edge.
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Post by cowhunter on Nov 29, 2014 13:18:31 GMT -5
7mmfreak: Thanks for the effort put into your long and insightful post. No one should feel long posts are not encouraged.
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Post by deadeye on Nov 29, 2014 17:01:08 GMT -5
7mm- hope the emergency turns out ok hope I did not tick you off & if so definitely not my intention. I never disagreed with your post interesting enough with my generic calc's iirc the approx. bc at that distance around .261 with a drop approx. 45 ft. but I do think we have to remember sometimes intentions(equipment) gets pushed to superman results such as chris kyle's 2100 yd shot & even praire dogs @ 1,000 with 22-250's etc & even fred bears 140yds running recurve shot. howard hill might have been more the norm there! great post! take care,jeff
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Post by jims on Nov 29, 2014 19:49:41 GMT -5
Talking about equipment and long range shooting the Jan 2015 issue of Guns&Ammo has an article on page 56 that asks "Is this our Future?". Fighter jet technology atop America's rifle by Trackingpoint. Not something I would personally want to use but perhaps this is the way shooting is heading?
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Post by rambler on Nov 29, 2014 19:51:54 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 19:58:09 GMT -5
If it worked that well and was that much better than two trained men, the government would own it and we would be lucky to even know it existed. Looks like the rem 20/20 system and the similar gun that was out of Texas that remington bought out.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Nov 30, 2014 19:49:37 GMT -5
Defiantly a lot of time and effort went into that post and we all have out abilities and limits.. If I had a place to practice that 1000 yard shot and a deer walked out at 1000 yards I would take the shot if all other things I accounted for also lined up. Farthest I can practice on my farm is 650 yards and anything between me and that distance is dead if I pull the trigger. But it takes some time to get ready for that shot. Sitting on a sturdy shooting position and knowing the yardage, making the calculations and corrections in the scope and carefully pulling the trigger is when you make your shot count.. I once made a head shot on a doe at 597 yards. Took me a few minutes to get ready for the shot but when I squeezed the trigger the deer dropped like a rock. Personally I am proud of this guy for making such a great shot,,, but after all the scrutiny this poor guy has sustained I bet he wishes he kept it to himself.... Jeff...
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Post by airborneike on Nov 30, 2014 21:05:29 GMT -5
This debate can quickly become a "red herring" but here goes.
7mmfreak,
Well written and researched information from one at the top of his profession. You more than most know from experience that the "glamor" fades exponentially when this skill is used in the "real world". There is an enormous amount of work and constant practice to keep that "perishable" skill up to speed.
I congratulate the shooter on his successful 960 yard shot but I also know from experience and given the equipment used that there was a lot of luck involved.
The long range hunting debate has been raging for years and is likely to continue.
Being a "long range hunter" personally, the best advice is to do what YOU feel is ethically right and shoot within your practiced and proven abilities.
A 960 yard shot even with a 338 mag in conditions is not an easy shot to pull off.
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Post by elkman1310 on Nov 30, 2014 22:31:54 GMT -5
Well with over 35 years of long range shooting and hunting. And with confirmed kills on mule deer at 1960 yards. And elk out to 1860 yards. Just about anything is doable with the right equipment. If you are shooting out to a max of a 1000 yards the big 7mm's work ok. Only a few calibers work well past 1000 yards
The big 30/378's with long barrels most are 36" or longer. I built two years ago with 40" barrels to get 3600fps with a 200gr Sierra MK. This combo is good to about 1400 yards. After that it will become a crippler!
Next the 338/378 and 338/416 and 338/408 Chey-tac come into play. When built on a heavy gun platform with a long 36" plus barrel you can drive a 300 gr MK at 3100fps to 3300fps with the Chey-tac.
These guns have a effective range at sea level of a mile. Out west in high altitude 9,000ft or more you can reach out to 2100 yards with enough energy to kill a elk or mule deer cleanly.
Some shooter have built 50BMG's but bullet performance on game has not been as good as the 338's. I have seen several deer shot with a 50BMG at over 1000 yards and then didn't hardly react to the shot. Pretty amazing to watch. But that's usually what happens. yes it will kill anything that walks on this planet but for some reason not as quickly as other calibers.
Now for using a muzzle loader for long range hunting that's a different animal all together. When I first got my 270E-Max Parkers I ran a drop chart on this bullet to see what the effective range would be to stay above the 1000lb energy mark and it came out to 700 yards when the bullet had a muzzle velocity of 2850ft. So yes the 960yrd kill was doable because the god's were smiling on the shooter not the deer. At 960 yards that bullet is a crippler. At 700yrds or less is should do a good job.
I talked to Bob Parker about these bullets and he felt the 270E-max was not a good 1000yard bullet. So I will keep my shoots at 500 yards or less with any of the Parker bullets. When conditions are right a 500 yard shot is doable with a accurate muzzle loader.
If you want to kill game at these extended ranges use a high power rifle designed to do the job. And if you need to hunt in a different state because of regulations do that.
Tomorrow is the start of are deer season and we have the big long ranges guns ready. We watch 3 mountain ranges and shoot from 700 to 1850 yards. We have a little snow so glassing should be good.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 22:42:02 GMT -5
I have stayed out of this debate but have carefully followed it. I congratulate the shooter for the kill, that is a heck of a long poke given the equipment used. I can tell you no matter how much I practiced at that distance I could not have made that shot. would Ole Bill have tried? doubtful. trained shooters Like 7MM and Ike stand a much better chance of pulling that one off than I do. Im not saying it was unethical to take the shot Im just saying I would have left it to the professional if it were up to me to pull it off..
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Post by donw28 on Dec 1, 2014 15:05:09 GMT -5
I have tried to stay out of this one as well although it has been interesting. I love to hunt and I love to shoot. Good shooting and good hunting go hand in hand. I've never confused shooting with hunting though. I guess I'd asked a couple of questions: Did you shoot at that range because you were unable to close the distance or was the shot taken from that range because it was a "challenge?" 2) If you were in lets say Zambia and that was a Roan Antelope with a $6,000 trophy fee payable if you drew a single drop of blood would you have shot it or perhaps a leopard (about the same body weight) where you or someone else could have been seriously hurt if wounded would you have shot or would you have used hunting skills to get closer? I think those are fair questions. I think that Whitetail was at best a convenient target and the only one with any skin in the game was the deer. If that deer had been wounded and lost I'd bet my net worth that there would not have been a post on this forum about how someone almost killed a deer at 960 but only wounded him and he was not recovered. I promised myself years ago to never beat up on other hunters as long as what they were doing was legal. Since in my own my mind I'm walking a thin line here I'm going cover my post by saying I don't agree with the "shooters" choice of a live target and hope he holds the record forever.
Regards,
Don
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Post by edge on Dec 1, 2014 16:20:03 GMT -5
donw28,
You wrote:"I promised myself years ago to never beat up on other hunters as long as what they were doing was legal."
FAIL!
edge.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Dec 1, 2014 18:37:53 GMT -5
No kidding Edge...... There wasn't a $6,000 trophy fee on that deer so you can't turn it around and try to make it look like there was or could have been. We all dream and practice for long shots, just so happens this hunter made and extremely long shot and it worked out for him.. The hunter succeeded and the deer is dead. Let it be.... I got to ask myself. all you hunters that have put down this guy for what he has done? have all of you followed every hunting rule in the book? Never killed a deer with out tagging it, Never shot a deer on the other side of the fence, Never sneaked across the fence to get a better look at what was on the other side. Never kept a fish that was to small, Never, Never, Never Ever broke or bent a rule or law in the book... Well Unless you can answer NO to this question I don't think you should be judging this hunter for making a shot he has practiced a lifetime to get the chance to take and successfully making the shot. Either congratulate the guy for a job well done or keep your negative comments to your self. Jeff.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Dec 1, 2014 18:40:46 GMT -5
Edge, you are the king of debaters and that is not a jab. You can always find one little sentence or example to completely turn the tables. Kinda like what politicians do to each other. Somewhere I would bet that all of us could agree that some things are legal but potentially unethical. For instance, I would bet that it would be hard to find anyone here that thinks it OK for a hunter to take a running all out shot (or a 5 shot volley) at a running deer with an open sighted slug gun through thick timber at 300 yds. Would anyone step up and say that's OK? (Maybe Edge )Does anyone draw the line somewhere? How about thinking it would be fun to shoot at deer from the hip? Or left handed instead of right handed (if you are right handed)? Just to say you did it. Does a game animal deserve at least a minimal amount of respect? And how do you measure that? Many people have voiced their opinion and some of them very well with lots of well thought out reasoning. We have neighbors in the woods that take the unethical 5 shot volleys. We see limping deer, gut shot deer, deer with their jaws hanging off. "Can't kill a deer if you don't shoot at it". Deer bedded in their last bed, so sick and in pain that you can walk up and shoot them in the head. No they didn't break the law and yes, they feel like Edge...."Leave me alone, You do what you have to do and I will do what I like to do...shoot often." Ok, we leave them alone and we do not confront them. However, if they would come to our camp and ask us if we were impressed by the number of shots they take, THEN our opinions would come out heavily. That's what happens when you put yourself out there. Don't just expect what you wanted to hear...all the praise and glory. That's what this poor guy did...or his friend that brought it up. I wouldn't expect anything other than the discussions that followed.. Are you right? Am I right? Is anyone right? Who knows. What I do know is that 10 times (or more) people read this post without commenting. And maybe, just maybe, the discussion raised many interesting points that will make people think about what they might do. Maybe refresh and reset certain things in their mind that hadn't been considered in a long time. And that's good.
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Post by edge on Dec 1, 2014 18:54:54 GMT -5
IMO, if I take a shot and think I connected then you better be sure I am going to empty the gun as long as I know that the shot direction is clear of people or buildings! IMO, once I pull that trigger I think that it would be unethical not to take more shots to reduce that animal to bag!
On the other hand, if someone takes one shot and isn't sure he connected I'll keep my mouth shut unless he asks me to help him track the animal. AND, if I catch a glimpse of that deer as it tries to evade us I will empty my gun or my quiver to at least slow it down.
Some of the big name hunters would take a "mobility" shot on dangerous game to ensure that they would not have to track something that might kill him or members of his party. Ethical, not my call!
If the next hunter takes a different shot but woulds a dangerous animal and a tracker is subsequently killed by the wounded animal who made the better decision on shot placement?
edge.
PS I was in a hunting club for about 10 years and I participated in probably a hundred deer drives. I can count on one hand the number of times I was a shooter! First I hate to shoot at running deer and second I take too long to get that perfect kill shot so I chose to be a driver...with no regrets!
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Post by elkman1310 on Dec 1, 2014 19:44:24 GMT -5
I am surprised this topic has turned into a 3 page debate. Long range hunting and target shooting are really two different things. I shoot 1000 yard competition all summer long with cartridges designed for that type of work.
I hunt long range with a group of experienced long range shooters and hunters. Today in Pa. we had 3 long range guns setup and 6 large pair of glasses to watch 3 heavily timbered mountain sides with no snow on any of them. People think some how the animal has less value if you try and kill it at long distance.
It truly becomes a trophy. With 6 guys glassing all day we only saw 3 deer one was a small buck which we didn't kill. When you long range hunt you have to pick your shots. A lot of times we my see a buck but never get to shot because of tree branches or the deer won't stop long enough to get a clean kill shot.
There are slop hunters in every form of hunting. Long range hunting requires a lot of high priced equipment and years of practice to be successful. This weeds out the slob hunters real fast.
Hey the guy made a heck of a shot at 960 yards. What I didn't like about him taking that shot was he new the bullet really didn't have the energy to do the job at that distance. He ran a click chart to get his 56 MOA of elevation so he new from the Ballistics chart the bullet was well below the 1000ftlb of energy to take a deer cleanly so why take the shot.
We know the effective killing range on our long range guns and we can glass deer well beyond their effective so we don't shoot it's that simple. Stay with in your limits of your equipment and your comfort of long distance shooting. The rule of thumb is if your going to get good at hitting targets at 500 yards you really practice at 700 yards and if you want to go to 1000 yards practice at 1200 or more. when you can hit the longest target with true repeatable results the closer targets with be more doable.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Dec 1, 2014 20:42:24 GMT -5
I got to ask myself. all you hunters that have put down this guy for what he has done? have all of you followed every hunting rule in the book? Never killed a deer with out tagging it, Never shot a deer on the other side of the fence, Never sneaked across the fence to get a better look at what was on the other side. Never kept a fish that was to small, Never, Never, Never Ever broke or bent a rule or law in the book... Well Unless you can answer NO to this question I don't think you should be judging this hunter for making a shot he has practiced a lifetime to get the chance to take and successfully making the shot. Either congratulate the guy for a job well done or keep your negative comments to your self. Jeff. I can honestly say I have never broken a game law. Can't say the same for everything else tho. I didn't cast stones colored right and wrong in this discussion. Besides, those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. That's why I live pretty straight these days; glass houses are indefensible. MTJ555 watched me nearly end my career in Afghanistan (and it could still end my career down the line ) for telling the truth and taking responsibility for a mistake when nobody knew about it. As a guy who worked for me said, "The way you walk is the way you fight and the way you fight is the way you walk." That is to say, you choose one way to be in all things. Convenient ethics aren't ethics at all . I didn't wake up one day and say,"I'll be holier than thou from this day hence." I learned a lot of things the hard way by making mistakes that hurt over the the course of half a decade being a jackass. The last decade I have spent climbing out of that hole, working hard to ensure I don't have many peers, and arriving at a point where I'm pretty confident in my knowledge, skill, and judgement and affirmed by reputation. I generally post with tact. If I'm in doubt about whether to post it I send a PM. Unfortunately, unless the moderators find it inappropriate anyone can post what they please. The only way one can avoid unpleasantries is post safe material that doesn't attract unwanted attention, avoid feeding the trolls, and/or taking a Web vacation when keyboard Jedi abound.
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Post by ET on Dec 1, 2014 21:02:53 GMT -5
What puzzles me more is why this thread has not been moved to the Smokeless Success Story Board. Deer was killed and recovered and after say a day of exposure is normally moved from the main board. Is there some new exceptional ruling I’m not aware of?
Ed
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Post by rambler on Dec 1, 2014 22:06:47 GMT -5
BEWARE:
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