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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 1, 2014 12:24:35 GMT -5
After corresponding with Richard and others on this board. I have come to find out that my breech plug and barrel do not mate up as well as other with the same setup.
This is a savage breech plug to a Pacnor barrel.
Richard and a few other have stated that they do not get powder residue on the section of the breech plug from the front of the threading that mates to the barrel threads to the shoulder of the plug that mates to the barrel to create a good seal. I unfortunately was not so lucky.
So here is what I did. I took a 1/2 inch wooden dowel rod and sanded it down a bit so I could slide it pasts the above mentioned threads of the barrel until the flat end of the dowel rod rested on the barrel section that mates to the shoulder of the breech plug. I then glued some 2000 grit sand paper to the end of the wooden rod. I then proceeded to put the wooden rod back in the barrel until it came to rest on the barrel section that mates to the shoulder of the breech plug. I then lightly worked the rod around to clean up the dark residue so I could get a better look at the barrel section that mates to the breech plug shoulder. I had already inspected the breech plug shoulder which was clean and looked to be well formed with no blemishes. I then shined a light down my barrel and could see imperfections on the surface which I later figured out to most likely be chatter marks from the reamer. I then removed the action and sent the barrel back to Pacnor over a month ago.
All I am getting from Pacnor is we don't know what caused the imperfections of the barrel surface and no resolution to my problem. Also, they told me they installed my breech plug and put oil in the barrel and applied pressure and there where no leaks around the shoulder area, but I questioned if they sealed the primer pocket and really accomplished this test properly. I informed them that there test cannot be correct as the marks run from the bore to outside of the shoulder of the breech plug. Also they told me they don't know how to fix the barrel. I am still working this issue with them.
I just wanted other to be aware that if the are getting powder resdue past the shoulder of there breech plug that this could be a possible cause.
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Post by cuda on Oct 1, 2014 14:59:15 GMT -5
I would tell then to shorten the breech end of the barrel what ever it takes to clean up the marks inside. Then it would seal up again like it should have been when it was new.
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Oct 1, 2014 18:08:35 GMT -5
I get discoloration on all of mine, Pacnor and McGowen, up to the Teflon tape. I find it hard to believe that you can get a perfect metal to metal seal with two non ground, turned, parts. I got the tool from hillbill to improve the surface in the barrel which will make it better, but it will never know the breechplug perfectly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 20:29:42 GMT -5
welcome to the world of Savage plugs and not so smooth barrel shoulders, can you get a perfect seal? Yes but it will take a little work. the tool works but one must be diligent to keep the sealing surface clean and mirror smooth. after prepping with the tool you can put a light coat of anti seize on the plug shoulder and it will tighten without seizing.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 1, 2014 22:08:44 GMT -5
Welcome to mass production... Savage contracts their plugs out to the lowest bidder, the lowest bidder has to crank them out by the hundreds in order to make a buck. Their is a tolerance on the print for lengths and diameters and as long as they fall between those tolerances the plug is an exceptable part,, no mention of surface quality so you get a plug with a mating surface that looks like this, The plug was ran so fast that the metal was ripped out instead of cut off. A proper plug surface should look like this. Now when coupled with a chattered shoulder surface in the barrel, there's no way to get a good seal,, but if both parts are machined with pride, know how and just a little bit of care and understanding of what these parts are for and what they do then it is easy to get a good 100% seal between the two parts.. Quality control is a big part in quality manufacturing,, where has that gone?? I would rather pay twice as much for something that works, than to pay twice for something that does not,,, plus avoid the headache,,, Jeff.. Just my 2 cents....
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Post by fishhawk on Oct 1, 2014 22:18:49 GMT -5
Onecardchuck, I can see what I and my machinist friends can do for your barrel if you send it to me with the plug.
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Post by cowhunter on Oct 1, 2014 23:28:10 GMT -5
Jeff. Thanks for your input. Some may think it sounds like bragging, but if it is the truth and is helpful you should be required to post it. By the way, you were going to make some Savage plugs with your CNC machine. Did you ever make them? What are the plugs in your picture made of?
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Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 1, 2014 23:47:10 GMT -5
Cow hunter.. The plugs are made from 416 stainless. The savage plugs are in the works and should be available soon from Luke.. Jeff.
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Post by rangeball on Oct 2, 2014 8:43:21 GMT -5
Cow hunter.. The plugs are made from 416 stainless. The savage plugs are in the works and should be available soon from Luke.. Jeff. Jeff, will these be straight replacement plugs that take 209 or modified to more closely replicate your LRMP system, which I assume would require a new bolt face as well?
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Post by lwh723 on Oct 2, 2014 8:50:10 GMT -5
Cow hunter.. The plugs are made from 416 stainless. The savage plugs are in the works and should be available soon from Luke.. Jeff. Jeff, will these be straight replacement plugs that take 209 or modified to more closely replicate your LRMP system, which I assume would require a new bolt face as well? These are going to be straight replacement plugs.
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Post by rangeball on Oct 2, 2014 9:14:08 GMT -5
Thanks.
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Post by Jon on Oct 2, 2014 10:37:27 GMT -5
I got my 6.5 barrel from Pacnor and on inspection the surface the plug sealed on was rough. I talked to them and sent it back to them and they cleaned it up. They figured that the tap was run a little to far and contacted the sealing surface? They took care of it in a very timely manner. This is a Remington center fire Dave d plug Pete made for me. I think the concept is pretty much the same as my Savage plugs.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 2, 2014 13:04:57 GMT -5
I want to ask myself,,. How do you run a tap to far in the barrel knowing the importance of the sealing surface and knowing you ran it in to far and shipping it anyway to the customer knowing he is not going to be happy and return it for re-work just adding more cost to the company.. Someone needs to take some more interest in quality control.. Teach the machine operators the correct way to do a barrel,, I can only imagine what their center fire rifle chambers look like...
Jeff.
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Post by fishhawk on Oct 2, 2014 14:12:27 GMT -5
Not every employee cares about quality. At my shop, too many mistakes sends one down the road.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 2, 2014 16:28:50 GMT -5
Not every employee cares about quality. At my shop, too many mistakes sends one down the road. I'm the only employee in my shop... Hopefully I won't have to cut my own head off,, even though sometimes I feel like it.. Lol. Jeff.
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Post by deertroy1 on Oct 2, 2014 16:44:38 GMT -5
Luke
Will you ship to Canada?
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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 3, 2014 12:33:31 GMT -5
fishhawk,
Thank you for the offer and I may take you up on that if pacnor ever reams and polishes my barrel and sends it back to me. Still waiting for hear from them after a reminder call a few days ago.
Hillbill,
I am sure you and possibly fishhawk have built enough of these to see there is a truing problem that requires some TLC to get right and keep it right.
hankinsrfls,
Thank you for you vast knowledge on quality of parts and mating.
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Post by elkman1310 on Oct 3, 2014 20:31:56 GMT -5
When you talk about your breach plug sealing on the face of the plug. Do you realize just how small of a contact area you are working with. I machine my own plugs for my CF build. The under threaded nose section measures .615 and it mates up against a .450 bore so that really doesn't give you a very good surface to seal against no matter how good you machine it. I do try and get the very best finish on the plug and inside the barrel. I check it with die marker and it does seal all the way around that's about as good as it gets. A 50cal barely has and metal inside the barrel to seal against.
The my plug head spaces off the front of the plug not the threads. I have seen Savage plugs vary .020 or more in length. My Primer holders are bored to the same depth in my lathe using a end mill and my digital readout on my tail stock. .001 to .002 makes a real difference on how the bolt closes.
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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 16, 2014 8:56:57 GMT -5
Latest update from Pacnor is after weeks of delay and repeated calls by me they came to the conclusion that they don't want to touch it, and there excuse was that they can't guarantee the section of the barrel will remain square to the breech plug. Well I politely informed them that it is currently not square to the breech plug since I am getting powder reside on the plug around the shoulder and it has chatter marks that your reamer put there when the barrel was made.
So I am getting my faulty barrel back and am hoping fishhawk will take it and see what he can do with it. PM sent.
I have to say this is very poor customer service by Pacnor and any barrels I buy from luke in the future will not be pacnors. I am thinking Brux possibly and would love to hear more about how others like there Brux barrels.
Any who this is all FYI and buyer beware of Pacnor barrels as they do not stand behind there work.
Hope this helps,
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Post by rangeball on Oct 16, 2014 9:24:25 GMT -5
Wow that's terrible Chuck. Hope Greg can make things right for you.
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Post by fishhawk on Oct 16, 2014 9:40:26 GMT -5
I'm contacting Dave D first to see if we can rattle the cage of someone who cares at Pacnor.
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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 16, 2014 10:00:41 GMT -5
fishhawk,
Thank you I should have thought of that a great idea, but I am not sure it will bare fruit.
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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 16, 2014 10:01:43 GMT -5
welcome to the world of Savage plugs and not so smooth barrel shoulders, can you get a perfect seal? Yes but it will take a little work. the tool works but one must be diligent to keep the sealing surface clean and mirror smooth. after prepping with the tool you can put a light coat of anti seize on the plug shoulder and it will tighten without seizing. Hillbill could you elaborate more on this tool you speak of and how it works? Thank you
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Oct 16, 2014 11:21:18 GMT -5
My Pacnors do not seal nowhere near as well as my McGowens. I got the tool from hillbill and will be doing mine after hunting season. I will be using the McGowens this year.
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Post by hydrodog on Oct 16, 2014 12:32:38 GMT -5
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Post by rangeball on Oct 16, 2014 13:09:24 GMT -5
Does use of that tool require re-head spacing?
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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 16, 2014 13:10:33 GMT -5
I spoke with hillbill this afternoon let me tell you he is a very knowledgeable guy and a real gentleman. I am very glad we have members like him and many others on this board and it is what makes this great quest we are all on in building a better mouse trap, being safe and having fun doing it.
Thanks again hillbill for your time.
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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 16, 2014 13:12:45 GMT -5
rangeball,
After talking with Bill you are only removing 1/2 to one thousands at a time so it would take a long time and a lot of arm strength before re-head spacing is needed.
Hope this helps,
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Post by rangeball on Oct 16, 2014 13:26:56 GMT -5
It does, thanks. I have my plug out now, might as well do a thorough inspection.
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Post by fishhawk on Oct 16, 2014 14:09:30 GMT -5
rangeball, After talking with Bill you are only removing 1/2 to one thousands at a time so it would take a long time and a lot of arm strength before re-head spacing is needed. Hope this helps, Exactly! A little lapping with the plug too maybe. And Dave D got my PM and is looking into it Chuck.
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