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Post by elkman1310 on Sept 30, 2014 16:47:53 GMT -5
Well let me say I am glad I live close to my rifle range because I made 3 trips today. First trip ended up a total flop! Loaded Imr 4198 and a 290 Barnes which I ran through my barrel sizing die. The bullet went down 2/3 the way and it stopped. I couldn't pound it down. Took it home pulled the breech plug and cleaned all the powder out of the threads.
Trip two loaded Imr again with another 290 I tested all the bullets in the barrel to make sure they would go all the way down without the breech plug. This 290 fit snug put a primer holder in and pulled the trigger. NO BANG! The bullet moved down the barrel about 3 inches. Went back home again!
Removed breech plug and changed the orifice screw on the rear of the plug from a 10/32 to a 1/4/28 S/S socket head screw and drilled out the flash hole from .080 to .160. The flame channel is the same size as the Savage plug and I am using a Savage vent liner so this plug should work!
Went back to the range and loaded BH209 120gr Volume load. with a 290. Gun went off instantly. Primer holder looks perfect no blow back and ejected off the bolt face. Second load was another BH 209 load it went off the way it should primer holder looked great. Loaded 70grs of 10x and a 290. Gun would not cock. I have had trouble with this trigger before but was always able to hold the trigger shoe forward and it would cook. This is a 2 OZ Hart trigger and this time it broke permanently . So I have yet to fire any smokeless powder in this barrel. I feel confident with the large flash hole I am using know it should lite things up.
For the guy's thinking about a center fire build Its not all the cut and tried. I wanted a design that I could chamber the primer just like a regular cartridge and also have it eject off the bolt face without a pick off tool. Mine does that. If I couldn't make that part work I would stay with the 209 system.
Maybe tomorrow will be a better day!
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Post by bestill on Sept 30, 2014 19:34:07 GMT -5
Are you annealing those barnes copper bullets?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 19:47:53 GMT -5
Are you annealing those barnes copper bullets? Them Barnes don't need annealed. Are you using a wad? |
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Post by bestill on Oct 1, 2014 5:08:21 GMT -5
Are you annealing those barnes copper bullets? Them Barnes don't need annealed. Are you using a wad? Ok how do they swell since they are solid. Seems they be very inconsistent? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 6:09:19 GMT -5
Them Barnes don't need annealed. Are you using a wad? Ok how do they swell since they are solid. Seems they be very inconsistent? They are not SOLID copper. |
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Post by rambler on Oct 1, 2014 7:10:08 GMT -5
Even if you wanted to how would one anneal a Barnes 290 T-EZ without melting the plastic tip?
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Post by bestill on Oct 1, 2014 7:39:11 GMT -5
Im confused i thought tmz was a copper bullet.
Annealing some on board are doing it and removing tips.
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Post by encore50a on Oct 1, 2014 7:47:31 GMT -5
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Post by rambler on Oct 1, 2014 8:11:37 GMT -5
Im confused i thought tmz was a copper bullet. Annealing some on board are doing it and removing tips. I tried doing that with the 300SSt's and I could not get the tips to go back on.
I am open for suggestions on that one
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 8:21:18 GMT -5
Are you annealing those barnes copper bullets? Them Barnes don't need annealed. Are you using a wad? Then are you just annealing the ceb's....I thought at one time you were annealing the 195's and the 250'tez's......? Are you just knurling and sizing the barnes now....? |
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Post by rangeball on Oct 1, 2014 8:37:00 GMT -5
Im confused i thought tmz was a copper bullet. Annealing some on board are doing it and removing tips. I tried doing that with the 300SSt's and I could not get the tips to go back on.
I am open for suggestions on that one
When I annealed some way back when I used a sharp knife to slowly work my way around the tip prying it up a bit at a time. Was able to get them off without damage as well as press them back in. |
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Post by rambler on Oct 1, 2014 8:59:42 GMT -5
I tried doing that with the 300SSt's and I could not get the tips to go back on.
I am open for suggestions on that one
When I annealed some way back when I used a sharp knife to slowly work my way around the tip prying it up a bit at a time. Was able to get them off without damage as well as press them back in. Guess i'll have to give them another try. I got the tips off ok but it seemed like a real "b" getting them back in. |
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Post by bestill on Oct 1, 2014 11:26:08 GMT -5
Guess i misspoke bullets are 100%copper not solid copper. That said be hard to swell into rifling. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 11:27:06 GMT -5
The Barnes go through an annealing process at the factory. They are soft copper. Cutting Edge's are solid. I annealed 195MZ's but no real accuracy difference between annealed and non annealed in the .40 sabotless. A Barnes 195MZ out of the pack went through my full form .392/.400 Swinglock die pretty easy. A 240gr Cutting Edge would not budge in the die. Annealing the Cutting Edge to glowing red and quenching in water softens them up for easy sizing.
Removing the tip from a 250 TEZ to anneal is a PITA in my opinion and not worth the effort. They size easily through a .449 die when I shot them in my Pacnor. No need to anneal them for accuracy.
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Post by jims on Oct 1, 2014 11:44:05 GMT -5
I just bought some of the 240 grain Cutting Edge bullets in .400 to use in my .40 as the Barnes 195s and 200 SSTs are IMO too loose and I hoped these might fit better. The factory rep felt they would work sabotless without annealing as I asked. If they do not I will either use them with sabots in a .45 or break out the heat but I hope to avoid that. I have the PacNor .40 but each barrel of course can be different.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 11:50:09 GMT -5
I just bought some of the 240 grain Cutting Edge bullets in .400 to use in my .40 as the Barnes 195s and 200 SSTs are IMO too loose and I hoped these might fit better. The factory rep felt they would work sabotless without annealing as I asked. If they do not I will either use them with sabots in a .45 or break out the heat but I hope to avoid that. I have the PacNor .40 but each barrel of course can be different. If you're still not happy with them after annealing, I'll buy them from you for my .392  |
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Post by rangeball on Oct 1, 2014 13:27:20 GMT -5
If they do not I will either use them with sabots in a .45 These are the version #1 incarnation that didn't fair well at all in sabots when we initially tested them. Watch for sabot disruption. |
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Post by jims on Oct 1, 2014 14:02:09 GMT -5
I will keep you posted when they arrive later this week and after I have had a chance to try them. Only got 50 to start.
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Post by rangeball on Oct 1, 2014 14:10:50 GMT -5
Removing the tip from a 250 TEZ to anneal is a PITA in my opinion and not worth the effort. They size easily through a .449 die when I shot them in my Pacnor. No need to anneal them for accuracy. I second this. I only did it as an afterthought as I was annealing some barnes 250gr .458s to test both annealed and not annealed for accuracy and thought why not. They size easily with the right lube and there are lots of loads available to make them obturate, which only takes about 30k psi to accomplish. For the record, the .458s also sized with a standard reloading press with a lot of effort but required half the effort when annealed. Not much difference in accuracy when shot. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 14:24:15 GMT -5
Jim's,
If you search back a couple years you posted you shot some of the CEB's sabotless that Rangeball sent you. I'm not sure what version it was but it had knurled rings so it was either .401 or .402. If you ordered them at .400 you will just have to knurl them to fit.
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Post by rangeball on Oct 1, 2014 14:57:37 GMT -5
Version #1 was smooth and .400, 240gr with a tangent ogive.
Version #2 was grooved, knurled and .401 or .402, 240gr with a tangent ogive.
Version #3 was not ringed, knurled and .402, 224gr with a secant ogive.
None fared well in sabots. I have some of V#3 that were subsequently shortened and the base profiled to match the 195bx but have not had the opportunity to shoot them to check for stability and sabot integrity.
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Post by elkman1310 on Oct 1, 2014 15:29:45 GMT -5
Hello! No I didn't anneal the Barnes bullets. They went through my barrel sizing die pretty easly. I am using the Barnes because that's the only bullet I had on hand. I have some Parkers coming because that is the bullet I want to use in this gun. I don't have any wads yet either. I hope to test the gun tonight to see if it fires with 10x. Its in the barrel with a bullet right now. I had to swap out the trigger and the scope. So I hope 10x goes off. Since BH209 went off 10x should work fine. I never had any issues with 10x in my Savage. If 10x works I'll try 4198 in both versions. I will be happy with a Parker 300gr MH going 2700 to 2800 with good accuracy.
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Post by elkman1310 on Oct 1, 2014 15:30:28 GMT -5
Hello! No I didn't anneal the Barnes bullets. They went through my barrel sizing die pretty easly. I am using the Barnes because that's the only bullet I had on hand. I have some Parkers coming because that is the bullet I want to use in this gun. I don't have any wads yet either. I hope to test the gun tonight to see if it fires with 10x. Its in the barrel with a bullet right now. I had to swap out the trigger and the scope. So I hope 10x goes off. Since BH209 went off 10x should work fine. I never had any issues with 10x in my Savage. If 10x works I'll try 4198 in both versions. I will be happy with a Parker 300gr MH going 2700 to 2800 with good accuracy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 15:44:28 GMT -5
I've never shot Barnes without a wool wad. I've shot Parker BE's out of one barrel without wads and they did great. Good luck.
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Post by jims on Oct 1, 2014 15:58:44 GMT -5
:)45Omega: I knew I had tested some .40 caliber bullets a couple of years or so ago. I did not look at my notes and had forgotten they were the Cutting Edge. At that time they were not the most accurate for me but I only had a few to test. I will give it another try. If they do not work so be it. Someone may want them or they can go with my many other bullets I have tried over the years, some that worked well and some that did not. I have quite the collection by now. I have kept most of them. If I would have done that with a number of vettes, big block chevelle, mustang etc all in convertibles that I owned I would be well heeled. Now I am just the heel. Could be worse parts I guess.
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Post by rangeball on Oct 1, 2014 16:02:32 GMT -5
Initially sw tried the V#1s sabotless without success, but Stephen has breathed new life into them. Not sure if it's a load issue or what, but you can't argue with his success.
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Post by bestill on Oct 1, 2014 18:16:02 GMT -5
Ive had 3 Douglas barrels and they all shoot Parker bullets extremely well rite out of box. And even better if knurl them then smooth form them for more consistent size. .060 veggie wad. All my Douglas barrel got better after about100 rounds .
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Post by cr500afx on Oct 1, 2014 23:47:11 GMT -5
I am shooting the 250TEZ sabotless with a wool wad. Sized in a smooth swing lock die. 10/60 IMR SR4759/H4198 2777 fps. Attached is a photo of two projectiles captured in the eigth of a series of water filled milk jugs. The projectiles appear to be solid copper from the ogive rearward. I measured the base of them and found they obturated less than .002 in. if any at all. The rifling marks can hardly be felt with a finger nail.  |
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Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 1, 2014 23:52:05 GMT -5
Those bullets look real good.. Nice expansion., if they shoot accurately there's no reason not to shoot them.. Jeff.
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Post by jims on Oct 2, 2014 12:01:26 GMT -5
Penetration of that bullet through 7 milk jugs into the eighth is significant to me.
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