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Post by Richard on Sept 16, 2014 16:43:37 GMT -5
.45 cal Rem./PN --27.5" heavy contour bbl. with .040" tungsten bushing: OK, so here goes..................  Fouled a clean barrel with two shots. 240 gr. Sierra with 5/62 Clays/H4198. 2499 and 2709 respectively--both had sticky (s) primers. First up was a 250 gr. Nosler hollow point with .060" veggie wad and 75 gr. of H-4198. First two shot had some flame come out the barrel. The third shot not so much as the velocity came up a bit. Still average was 2446 with a 158 fps ES with a 2.1" group:'( Second was a 300 gr. XTP with with the same 75 gr. of H-4198 (all my loads use the .060" veggie wad) 2238 and 2257 respectively.........#3 Did not ignite  . Ran it back down the barrel and put a CCI Mag. primer under it and it perked up to 2392 FPS with a 22996 fps average and 153 fps ES............a 1.5" group Most all of these shots also had sticky primers save for two. At this point is pretty much S_ _ _ Canned the single powders and reverted back to my duplex loads. Fortunately I got my shipment of 290 TEZ's from Luke yesterday. These bullets go down the bore very loose. (no sizing at all--they mic around .4503")) ONE hand with my arm stretched out was all the pressure I needed to seat. The load was 10/60 of Clays/H-4198. As you can see from the target and my log sheet, things definitely improved  I then ran it out to 300 yards and it did not disappoint coming in with a 3 (in a row) .711" group and 2.8" for all five shots. The velocity averaged 2634 fps with a 15 fps ES. For my last group I went with the 300 gr. SST and the same duplex. Here the velocity averaged 2630 fps with a 25 fps ES. It grouped slightly higher but was larger at 5.0" for five shots. The last time I shot this bullet at 300 yards with a 7/60 duplex the velocity was practically the same and the five shot group was also 5". I don't think the "cup and core" bullets need as much of a booster to get equal velocity and accuracy. On the other hand, I might try going up a couple grains on the Clays to say.........12 gr. and even kick up the 4198 a couple of grains. With the cup and core bullets I might leave the Clays down at 7 or 8 gr. and run the main charge up to 62 or 63. As far as I am concerned the single powder loads should be reserved for full form bullets as the land riders don't build enough pressure. Richard  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 17:08:23 GMT -5
I've got to agree with you when you say the solid copper land riders don't work without a booster.
This last weekend I shot about 20 of the Full formed .458 323 grain CEB's with ~90 grains of IMR3031. With the .041" bushing and the 7/32 PFC with 26 1/2" of barrel in front of the lug.
The first bullets were so loose that the ramrod pushed the bullets down the barrel by itself, with a Velocity of ~2640 with that load.
After I figured out the sizing, and tightened the bullets up, the velocities were ~ 2900 fps, with a non-boosted load of IMR3031.
So with a .458 full form solid copper bullet, a .458 Full form MH OR a .451 land rider Match Hunter there is not problems with ignition.
I haven't shot a single load/bullet combo like you have Richard.
So I'm glad you're figuring this out with the land rider solid coppers.
I haven't had a single misfire or hang fire with the Full Formed Match Hunters or APB's, with a non-boosted load and the .040" bushing with the 7/32" PFC.
Any load the uses a land rider bullet, even the Match Hunters, will lose a little pressure at first before the bullet obturates and seals the bore.
A Match Hunter/ BE is like a piece of Hubba Bubba bubble gum in the bore, easily swelling to fill the bore. Even with slower powders.
A solid copper is like a rock hard Tootsie Roll in the bore, which needs a heckuva lot of pressure to sell up in the bore. That's where the boosters come in to play.
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Post by Richard on Sept 16, 2014 18:46:49 GMT -5
The last time I had tried the 290 TEZ was July 9th. 2013. Big Moose had given me a dozen to try when I first started going sabot less, probably 6 mo. to a year before that date. At that time I could not get them to shoot for beans! Subsequently I got involved with using Clays as a booster with good results. So on the above date, I shot the last five TEZ's that Big Moose had given me. The load was 7/60 Clays/H4198. The entire five shot group averaged 2588 fps with the first shot at 2543 fps. The last four shots averaged 2598 with a 18 fps ES. The entire group measured 1.0"-------------Take away the first shot and it shrunk to .670". Since that time I had been meaning to get a few more to try but being a little frugal, and having a couple of hundred 250 Parker blems to play with along with all those other generic bullets, I never got them..............Until Luke just got a deal on some and I "bit the bullet!". Needless to say, I was and am impressed now that I know for sure a good kick in the arse with FAST booster will get them shooting well. I would be tempted to play with the FF game if there was some type of local competition..........but there is not? Any hunting I would be doing down here in NC would probably not exceed 200 yards. So, is it worth my while to be spending money and the additional die, along with being locked in (more or less) to shooting high dollar bullets just to impress Hank! For me, it the 600 yard game where I will spend the money.......................Yup! Just spent $180 for a new custom made Protector Dr. bag with a special "slick" material for the stock to ride on along with heavy sand and then a matching front bag! I have built up enough confidence that any deer within 300 to 400 yards could be mine at the pull of a trigger (with the right gun and proper rest under the right conditions) Thanks for the good deal on those bullets Luke! Richard |
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Post by longbowshtr on Sept 16, 2014 18:59:46 GMT -5
Thanks Richard for your testing.
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Post by jims on Sept 16, 2014 19:21:41 GMT -5
I appreciate all the info. Just trying to determine yet if a .030 bushing and standard flame channel or .040 and the bigger channel would serve my needs best. Also I wish we had some cold weather testing but then again I could wish my life away.
I generally use duplex loads but my booster is 4759 and generally only top it with 50 grains of 4198. Some full form, some smooth formed and some saboted in my .45s. Maybe the Oracle could tell me.
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Post by rambler on Sept 16, 2014 19:47:09 GMT -5
I can't speak for others but the .040 bushing that fishhawk installed for me and enlarging my flash hole reminded me of when I put a set of headers on my old '70 Camaro SS with the 396. That bad got up and romped.
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Post by Alabama on Sept 16, 2014 19:58:35 GMT -5
"""""Fouled a clean barrel with two shots. 240 gr. Sierra with 5/62 Clays/H4198. 2499 and 2709 respectively--both had sticky (s) primers. First up was a 250 gr. Nosler hollow point with .060" veggie wad and 75 gr. of H-4198. First two shot had some flame come out the barrel. The third shot not so much as the velocity came up a bit. Still average was 2446 with a 158 fps ES with a 2.1" group:'( Second was a 300 gr. XTP with with the same 75 gr. of H-4198 (all my loads use the .060" veggie wad) 2238 and 2257 respectively.........#3 Did not ignite""""" Read more: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/15852/single-powder-040-bushing#ixzz3DWvMW6zfWHY IS THE FPS SO LOW WITH 75 GR. 4198? WHY THE LARGE SWINGS IN VELOCITY? DO YOU BELIEVE ITS THE BUSHIN/FLAME CHANNEL OR IS IT THE BULLET SIZING? I would assume you believe it to be the type bullet you were using |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 20:00:42 GMT -5
Jims in my opinion you could use the .040 without drilling the plug with the loads you are talking about. Is this a savage or rem build? I think you would be safe on either, are you figuring on trying like straight 62grs?
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Post by jims on Sept 16, 2014 21:39:59 GMT -5
myers129: These would be Sav/replacement barreled MLs. I generally shoot 10 grains of 4759 followed by 50 grains of 4198. I have at times went as high as 60 grains of 4198 along with the 10g 4759. I have not been shooting the high 70s loads some shoot.
I could get the .030 bushing, it will eventually get to .040 by the time I am old. I am already old, when I get older.
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Post by Richard on Sept 16, 2014 22:39:27 GMT -5
Alabama...........Its the pressure. T he 4198 (in my opinion) does not build enough pressure with loose land riders. Put that charge under a full formed bullet and it will probably scream. Put it under a saboted .40 bullet and you will probably wipe out the sabot. It might work with land riders that you have to hammer down the barrel.........  ?? Those loads all shot flames out the barrel indicating incomplete burning of the powder in the barrel. Plus one load that would not ignite? 4759 is an OK booster for saboted loads and works with some sabot less bullets. Copper bullets like the Barnes? You need instant high pressure to obturate and get them into the lands. This is where the Clays and Red Dot shine (or any of the faster pistol/shotgun powders) At this point in time, for me? I think vent holes from the smallest I have shot (.023) to the largest (.045) have worked equally as well. I have not witnessed any higher pressure signs with either size. I have not seen any difference with the larger flame channel? If I were going to order a new bushing plug I think I would just get the .030" and be done with it? I have put a LOT of shots down range and fail to see any significant differences. I was hoping something concrete would show up but so far........NADA? NO SMOKING GUN! Richard Richard |
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Post by madcityhoosier on Sept 17, 2014 7:32:16 GMT -5
Alabama...........Its the pressure. T he 4198 (in my opinion) does not build enough pressure with loose land riders. Put that charge under a full formed bullet and it will probably scream. Put it under a saboted .40 bullet and you will probably wipe out the sabot. It might work with land riders that you have to hammer down the barrel......... ?? Those loads all shot flames out the barrel indicating incomplete burning of the powder in the barrel. Plus one load that would not ignite? 4759 is an OK booster for saboted loads and works with some sabot less bullets. Copper bullets like the Barnes? You need instant high pressure to obturate and get them into the lands. This is where the Clays and Red Dot shine (or any of the faster pistol/shotgun powders) At this point in time, for me? I think vent holes from the smallest I have shot (.023) to the largest (.045) have worked equally as well. I have not witnessed any higher pressure signs with either size. I have not seen any difference with the larger flame channel? If I were going to order a new bushing plug I think I would just get the .030" and be done with it? I have put a LOT of shots down range and fail to see any significant differences. I was hoping something concrete would show up but so far........NADA? NO SMOKING GUN! Richard Richard What about plug fouling? At some point, I remember reading that the larger flame channel was not fouling (as much or at all?). To me, that'd be a huge advantage to start with a certain volumetric space in the flame channel and knowing that it will always be that volume because it won't foul with that carbon crud. Less breech plug drilling... that'd be swell. Anyone clarify this? |
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Post by bigmoose on Sept 17, 2014 7:47:46 GMT -5
Interesting, I only used 4198 in my 45 and only used 290 Barnes TMZ I sized them with a file .4505
no problems shot many one holer, and three Moose with it.
no to mention a dozen or so dimes
A very large smile.
vent hole 27- 28, jucked them at 31
You folks are way passed me in tech, but it is what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 8:23:16 GMT -5
Alabama...........Its the pressure. T he 4198 (in my opinion) does not build enough pressure with loose land riders. Put that charge under a full formed bullet and it will probably scream. Put it under a saboted .40 bullet and you will probably wipe out the sabot. It might work with land riders that you have to hammer down the barrel......... ?? Those loads all shot flames out the barrel indicating incomplete burning of the powder in the barrel. Plus one load that would not ignite? 4759 is an OK booster for saboted loads and works with some sabot less bullets. Copper bullets like the Barnes? You need instant high pressure to obturate and get them into the lands. This is where the Clays and Red Dot shine (or any of the faster pistol/shotgun powders) At this point in time, for me? I think vent holes from the smallest I have shot (.023) to the largest (.045) have worked equally as well. I have not witnessed any higher pressure signs with either size. I have not seen any difference with the larger flame channel? If I were going to order a new bushing plug I think I would just get the .030" and be done with it? I have put a LOT of shots down range and fail to see any significant differences. I was hoping something concrete would show up but so far........NADA? NO SMOKING GUN! Richard Richard What about plug fouling? At some point, I remember reading that the larger flame channel was not fouling (as much or at all?). To me, that'd be a huge advantage to start with a certain volumetric space in the flame channel and knowing that it will always be that volume because it won't foul with that carbon crud. Less breech plug drilling... that'd be swell. Anyone clarify this? No plug fouling at all in any of my plugs with a bigger PFC. |
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Post by Richard on Sept 17, 2014 13:14:35 GMT -5
Thats funny because when I checked the plug this week prior to my Tuesday trip to the range, I put in the 7/32" drill bit and it cut out some carbon fouling? Enough that I could feel the drill bit cutting it. I would say with the larger flame channel you could go quite a few shots with out an significant build up but then I have shot plugs down to just a tiny hole...........yes, maybe 1/16" and never saw any difference in accuracy or pressure? What I am saying is I just (personally for me?) think bushing size and flame channel size has not created any smoking gun? In the past I would generally just put a 1/8" drill bit thru the carbon flame channel right to the bushing/vent. I would make sure the primer pocket was deep enough so the primer did not bottom out and get squashed by forcing the bolt closed on it.
Big Moose.........I did not touch those Barnes with any file, just shot them as they were (about .4503") right out of the box. My thought is to get away from having to knurl and or size them? It is so much easier. And I liked them so much that I ordered another 150 of them from Luke! I agree that you could knurl them up a bit for a little tighter fit. And, if I was going to do that, I would knurl them up even a little bigger and then run them thru my Swinglock die to uniform them. This is something I might try in the future.
Richard
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Post by bigmoose on Sept 17, 2014 13:48:56 GMT -5
Richard, In the olden
days we didn't have Swinglock dies
I sure we did.
I seems
to be the one who does't use fouling shots //// just pop a primer to clean out oil or what a go to shooting
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Post by Alabama on Sept 17, 2014 16:42:34 GMT -5
What needs to happen is to obtain a shot bullet to see if it has groove marks on it. I am collecting news papers going to pack them in a box and wet it down. Just not sure what size box I will need to trap a bullet.
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Post by Alabama on Sept 17, 2014 16:54:52 GMT -5
To tell the truth, my Hillbill Rem/Pac shoots pretty darn good with the .30 bushing. Not sure if I even want to change something that's doing what it's supposed to do. Now what I don't know is the cold weather. That will come. What I do know is any deer that steps in front of me is deer down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 17:31:23 GMT -5
Thats funny because when I checked the plug this week prior to my Tuesday trip to the range, I put in the 7/32" drill bit and it cut out some carbon fouling? Enough that I could feel the drill bit cutting it. I would say with the larger flame channel you could go quite a few shots with out an significant build up but then I have shot plugs down to just a tiny hole...........yes, maybe 1/16" and never saw any difference in accuracy or pressure? What I am saying is I just (personally for me?) think bushing size and flame channel size has not created any smoking gun? In the past I would generally just put a 1/8" drill bit thru the carbon flame channel right to the bushing/vent. I would make sure the primer pocket was deep enough so the primer did not bottom out and get squashed by forcing the bolt closed on it. Big Moose.........I did not touch those Barnes with any file, just shot them as they were (about .4503") right out of the box. My thought is to get away from having to knurl and or size them? It is so much easier. And I liked them so much that I ordered another 150 of them from Luke! I agree that you could knurl them up a bit for a little tighter fit. And, if I was going to do that, I would knurl them up even a little bigger and then run them thru my Swinglock die to uniform them. This is something I might try in the future. Richard The only fouling I see is a coating of black dust. And that's after ~ 150 shots on the one plug. Certainly not 1/16" of crud, like your seeing. |
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Post by Dave W on Sept 17, 2014 18:39:52 GMT -5
What needs to happen is to obtain a shot bullet to see if it has groove marks on it. I am collecting news papers going to pack them in a box and wet it down. Just not sure what size box I will need to trap a bullet. Smokeeter uses sand to catch bullets. Have to PM him for details. The link shows some of his recovered bullets, Deadeye posted some pics of various recovered bullets. dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/1416/makin-obturateNice groups with the 290 Richard! |
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Post by bigmoose on Sept 17, 2014 21:32:04 GMT -5
I take magazines and strap them tight 12 in a bunch, use 8 to 10 bunchs than strap them into one bunch, add several pieces of 2 X 4 on the front, it stops and recovers all bullets, even stops my 400 gr. Barnes Buster bullet at 2100 FPS.
depending how much wood you use the block will weigh 25 to 35 lbs,
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. Ran it back down the barrel and put a CCI Mag. primer under it and it perked up to 2392 FPS with a 22996 fps average and 153 fps ES............a 1.5" group 
?? Those loads all shot flames out the barrel indicating incomplete burning of the powder in the barrel. Plus one load that would not ignite? 4759 is an OK booster for saboted loads and works with some sabot less bullets. Copper bullets like the Barnes? You need instant high pressure to obturate and get them into the lands. This is where the Clays and Red Dot shine (or any of the faster pistol/shotgun powders)
