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Post by alleycat on Sept 15, 2014 7:35:27 GMT -5
G'day, Sorry for the boring first post. I'm sure these quistions have been beat to death but I'm new to the 10ml and smokeless muzzle loading in general and with some of the 10ML horror story's I figured I'd seek help from the more experienced out there. Basically I'm looking for some info and reassurance. I just bought a brand spankin new Savage 10-ML .50 from Cabalas Canada for a ML only moose season which coincidentally  coincides with deer and black bear season. Anyhow my locale reloading store tells me that SR-4759 is discontinued and VV-110 is near impossible to get and to top it all off he doesn’t stock any AA products. What he does have in stock is IMR-4227 but I read that it's not a Savage approved powder, something to do with unreliable ignition in cold temps. Another option although not listed as a savage approved powder (from what I can tell) is H-4198 that I happen to have since I use it to reload a .375 Win. Should I try the 4198 or go buy some 4227? Seems to be my only choices at the moment. As for bullets I I was think of a stout 250gr ...perhaps Barns or Hornady!? Any help/guidance would be much appreciated. Cheers Allan |
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Post by rangeball on Sept 15, 2014 8:50:33 GMT -5
Welcome!
H4198 is a great powder but 250gr may be a little light for it without using a small abmount of fast duplex powder underneath it. Can you get red dot, blue dot or clays? Bumping the bullet weight up to 300gr will also help you build the pressure you need for reliable ignition, but even then I'll let others talk to the cold temp sensitivity as I have no experience with it in a .50. Boosted with a fast starter I don't think it will be an issue.
If you can get the barnes 290gr TEZ (flat base) to shoot to your accuracy expectations it should be fantastic on those animals. I suspect the 300gr barnes original would as well. The original is a .458 bullet and many have found it shoots best in the harvester black crush rib sabot.
Whichever way you go you'll want a good tight fit to help ignition.
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Post by cuda on Sept 15, 2014 9:39:19 GMT -5
Welcome to Doug's!
I use the IMR4198 I use 69gr with a .458 300gr Hornady #4500 and a Harvester black crushed rib sabot and a Winchester 209 primer. That same load with the H4198 will work for the 250gr bullets too. I would just use the H4198 you have now to get started. For the bear I would use the 300gr bullet I know I would if I had the chance to hunt one. I shoot the 290gr TEZ to and it is a real good bullet too. Being your new I will try to help you get started. Most of us use a white or pink pipe tape on the breech plug and anti seize on the vent liner. Get your self some small water tight containers to put your powder in to keep it dry. Put a good scope on get it setup for your hunt range. The more you shoot the better you will be when hunting. As far as the cold If you shoot a lot in the cold and it fires every time it will when you are hunting too. Me and my sons shoot the IMR4198 in the cold and never had it not fire. Only once it did not fire but the powder got wet when hunting in the rain. Good Luck with your new gun!
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Post by GMB54-120 on Sept 15, 2014 9:53:19 GMT -5
Reloder7 and a 300gr bullet works too. N120 will also work but like N110, its a bear to find. Using these powders i would recommend sticking to a 300gr-325gr bullet. Im kinda partial to the Hornady 458 325gr FTX. Its a good reasonably priced bullet.
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Post by doc25 on Sept 15, 2014 12:05:38 GMT -5
Higginson's powder might have the vv110. They're in Ontario. I still have some 4759 so haven't tried anything else yet.
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Post by 10ga on Sept 15, 2014 12:38:49 GMT -5
Alleycat welcome, for your stock MLII use 300 grain or more bullet, I like the Speer 300 in .458 in a black crush rib or orange sabot. I have plenty 4759 but have tried 4198 and it is good. Find out if your gun likes a dirty or clean barrel for best accuracy. Clean that barrel real good, I mean really good before you shoot from NIB 1st time. Use ptfe tape or anti-seize on the breech plug and anti-seize on the vent liner. Use a good scope and mounts as Savage MLII SML in 50 cal are notorious scope eaters. Lurk and hang about this forum and make plenty use of the search function. If you have a problem just ask, no flaming here. We were all rookies at this once and there is plenty willing and knowledgable help. Best, 10 ga
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Post by alleycat on Sept 15, 2014 16:51:05 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info and warm welcome guys.
I stopped and bought some bullets on my way home tonight before reading all the reply's.
Got some 300gr SST's and 250 and 290gr Barns TMZ's. I don't see any of these recommended...lol oh well. They will give me some trigger time if nothing else.
Also have a EGW rail and a Nikon Inline 3x9 ML scope ordered....the scope seemed like a pretty good deal.
@ doc25, Higginsons is who I deal with mostly. Only 1.5 hrs away so I make a field trip for reloading supply's a couple times a year. Only thing he has that is (or was) Savage recommended is the IMR-4227. He does have both IMR and H-4198 however.
@ 10ga, you guys have me on a very steep learning curve. I had to google crush rib sabot. Up till now I thought one just used the sabots that came in the bullet pack.
Any old how looks like I have some reading to do....
Thanks Again
A
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Post by 10ga on Sept 15, 2014 18:04:48 GMT -5
Alleycat, Bulk bullets and bulk sabots are the way to go. Most guys that shoot stock 50 cal MLIIs find that .458 bullets in crush rib sabots or orange sabots give best accuracy. The SST and Barnes are good bullets and if you get suitable accuracy they could be good for you. For Hornadys the .458 cal 325 grain Flex tip is favored by many and is a designated rifle bullet. I'll try to get on here and find some threads here at dougs that will give more info and insight into getting the most out of your Savage MLII and post links to same for you. It's 7pm and I gotta go eat something, so be back later. 10 ga
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Post by jims on Sept 15, 2014 19:36:49 GMT -5
I have had good success with the 250 SSTs and the 300 SSTs over the years with good accuracy although the Barnes Originals with the correct sabots have been good for many.
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Post by deertroy1 on Sept 15, 2014 20:13:35 GMT -5
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Post by jims on Sept 15, 2014 21:26:09 GMT -5
Tar12 liked the N120 with Barnes Originals in the .50. Not so easily a powder to find locally. I liked it as it is clean burning.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 16, 2014 5:10:28 GMT -5
Alleycat,
You scored big and I think you will be happy. I have shot all the bullets you have just bought before switching to .458 bullets. Your H4198 is my favorite powder and I have burned many pounds of it back in the day.
Recommendations:
250 TMZ - 74-76 gr H4198 should give you 2600 fps
290 TMZ - 70-72 gr H4198 should give 2400+fps
300 SST - same as the 290 TMZ
All should shoot minute of moose right out of the box
Next time you buy supplies, get some Harvestor crush rib sabots and Hornady 325 gr FTX's and try 70 gr H4198.
Loading procedures recommended:
With a completely clean gun, shoot a few foulers of some sort. Then shoot paper. Don't swab between shots. If warm, wait 5-10 minutes between shots. If cold, you can pretty much load and shoot since H4198 is most forgiving in terms of longer, efficient pressure curves. These "heavy" loads of H4198 are WAY EASIER on sabots them "LIGHT" book loads of N110 or 4759. The book powders have a very sharp initial pressure spike and exceeding book loads by even a little, you will have sabot failure quickly. No so much with the slower powders. Do not use lubes in the barrel.
Basically you are set. I've had the best luck with FED209A primers.
There are so many things you should check if you can't get the above loads to shoot good right out of the gate. Too many things to mention. But I say go shoot first and if you have accuracy issues, we'll address those things later.
Good luck and good shooting
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 7:44:25 GMT -5
Alleycat
If you have the EGW base Im thinking of you might want to go a different direction, the ones I have seen are aluminum and don't have full cross slots. get a good steel base with full cross slots. Warne, Farrell, Talley etc are all good but it will also need to be bedded to the receiver. if you have questions Pm me and I will give you my number and can walk you through the process. good base and rings are a must on the MLII, they are know scope eaters....Bill
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Post by alleycat on Sept 16, 2014 8:52:31 GMT -5
You fellas are going to think I'm one dumb canuck but I just realized that you are all recommending regular rifle bullets in .458 and wrapping them in sabots. I was tunnel visioned on those ML bullet packs of 15/20 etc that the local big box stores carry. Well this opens up a whole new world of possibilities since Higginsons carries almost everything Hornady offers.
I'm still a little confused about sabots. On the Harvester site they have specific sabots for smokeless powder and sabots for different size bullets ie .451-.452 etc so would they be ok for a .458 bullet?
If i was going to make an order of Hatvester sabots what would you thnk a good mix would be for testing...the must try's if you will?
Cheers
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Post by rangeball on Sept 16, 2014 9:31:43 GMT -5
For a .458 bullet the black crush rib is the one you want from Harvester. The smooth black and the red crush rib are for .451 class bullets and which one you want depends on the tolerances of your individual bore.
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Post by ET on Sept 16, 2014 9:53:18 GMT -5
Alleycat Since you’re new to smokeless muzzle loading there are some points you should be made aware of. If you’re going with 4198 I do recommend you start with 300gr bullets to help with powder burning. You’re combination of sabot and bullet should produce at least 40lbs or more load resistance to initiate a good powder burning start. You are probably starting out with an unmodified breech plug so start with a Fed 209A primer to deliver sufficient juice (thermal energy) for powder ignition. You’re also going to have to get into the habit of monitoring your vent orifice size. From my own experience when the vent hole gets to .032-.033” you should start seeing your best performance beginning. As for sabot recommendation well that is dependent on bullet sabot fit for proper load resistance. This chart should show you what is available for fit reference.  Ed |
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Post by 1gifford on Sept 16, 2014 10:41:41 GMT -5
Ed
A Picture is really worth a thousand words. I wish I would have seen that years ago!!!
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Post by mrbuck on Sept 16, 2014 10:44:20 GMT -5
alleycat...
And if you are using an aluminum range rod get a Bore Guide to be used on the aluminum rod . Luke has the and the are very inexpensive and will save your muzzle . Blunderbusses were never known for their accuracy .
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Post by alleycat on Sept 16, 2014 11:13:29 GMT -5
Alleycat If you have the EGW base I'm thinking of you might want to go a different direction, the ones I have seen are aluminum and don't have full cross slots. get a good steel base with full cross slots. Warne, Farrell, Talley etc are all good but it will also need to be bedded to the receiver. if you have questions Pm me and I will give you my number and can walk you through the process. good base and rings are a must on the MLII, they are know scope eaters....Bill Hmmm, good point Bill, Guess i shouldn't have pulled the trigger so fast on the EGW. They really need to be bedded? I should have thought about it a little more...300gr at 2400fps would have to be a thumper all right. Do you think the Nikon Inline XR scope I ordered will hold up? I thought the 5 inch eye relief would be a good thing. |
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Post by 10ga on Sept 16, 2014 11:34:23 GMT -5
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Post by bloodtrailer on Sept 16, 2014 17:28:11 GMT -5
Start with proven loads H4198(65-70 grns) sr4759(42-43grns) .458 300 grain bullets( Remington , barns , ect..) in Harvester sabots (crushed ribbed) have good vent liners in and shoot on cool days for best results 15min wait time + between shots( or go sabutless)and a good scope. scope mounts are sometimes to long and need attention, as do the screws if they bottom out to soon. Bedding the rifle is a plus.
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Post by mike243 on Sept 16, 2014 18:41:05 GMT -5
The Nikon scope will be fine, I bought 1 and love it so far no problems
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Post by cowhunter on Sept 17, 2014 12:27:32 GMT -5
Allycat. Welcome. All the advice given is good. The main reason there are different sabots is that there are two sizes of bullet -- .451 and .458. You have to have a sabot that creates at least 40 pounds of loading pressure. I would use the 250 or 290 Tmz because obturation is a non-issue with 50 cal, and solid copper can put moose and bear in their place.
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Post by dans on Sept 18, 2014 15:11:52 GMT -5
+1 for Barnes bullets. Can't go wrong with them.
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Post by alleycat on Sept 19, 2014 11:54:38 GMT -5
Looks like I should be well set up. Aside from the bullets I already bought I have a nice care package coming in from Harvester consisting of a different sabots and some scorpion PT bullets as well as a box Hornady .458 FTX's ...
Also got a bit of an education when with my Canadian accent tried to order "sabutts" but was told they only sold "saybows"......LOL I don't get out much........
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Post by doc25 on Sept 19, 2014 13:26:03 GMT -5
I ordered some from mmp and it seems it will be a total of 3-4 weeks for delivery. Customs held them up for over 10 days, so I hope you're not in a rush LoL. I also got charged an extra $3 per bag plus actual shipping.
Where did you order the harvesters from? Direct? Any extra charges?
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Post by ET on Sept 19, 2014 18:07:33 GMT -5
Doc25 You can order MMP Sabots at PR Bullets. www.prbullet.com For Harvester Sabots I order mine from Joe Woods in Ontario 519-247-3324 Hope this is helpful to you. Ed |
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Post by doc25 on Sept 20, 2014 12:27:06 GMT -5
ET
Thanks for the info. The standard mmp's are too tight so I need to try the hph 24's and the 3 pedal ez's to see which ones fit best. I originally bought my sabots from cabelas when I bought my rifle but am sure they would not stock the variations. Just recently I learned that some of the harvesters appear that they would be looser in the barrel ( after I ordered the mmp's).
Thanks for the help.
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Post by alleycat on Sept 20, 2014 14:38:23 GMT -5
I ordered my stuff directly from Harvester. 1-800-922-6287 and speak with Alan Hensley or Ron Bugg Jr... Very very nice to deal with.
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Post by deertroy1 on Sept 20, 2014 16:15:05 GMT -5
ET
I just ordered some sabots from Harvester and the shipping cost me as much as the sabots. I didn't know about Joe Woods but I'll definitely check him out next time. Thanks for the info.
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coincides with deer and black bear season. Anyhow my locale reloading store tells me that SR-4759 is discontinued and VV-110 is near impossible to get and to top it all off he doesn’t stock any AA products. What he does have in stock is IMR-4227 but I read that it's not a Savage approved powder, something to do with unreliable ignition in cold temps. 
