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Post by Buckrub on May 21, 2009 12:56:41 GMT -5
Dave and Why, thanks.......I'll pray for anyone, though I wonder sometimes how I'm received!
Ozark, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Post by ozark on May 21, 2009 14:33:23 GMT -5
I agree to be agreeable as we disagree. That is what freedom is all about. Ben
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Post by Buckrub on May 21, 2009 14:41:39 GMT -5
Well, I agree that you are most agreeable for a disagreeing type person!! I agree about the Freedom too. I disagree that we can't ever agree, too!!
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Post by dougedwards on May 21, 2009 20:42:20 GMT -5
I think I'm confused Doug
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Post by ozark on May 21, 2009 21:08:55 GMT -5
I agee with your disagreement that we can't ever agree, too.
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Post by dougedwards on May 21, 2009 23:47:18 GMT -5
Whyohe, thank you. But my beliefs are so far different from most of the posters here that I will not sway anyone, of that I am sure. I have stated above, in several posts, for all to read what I believe, and it's not accepted. It seldom is. I am trying to stay away from commenting to my FRIENDS here on this subject, but this is one subject it is hard for me to be silent on. I would think it would be much more than difficult to actually sway anyone's heart to believe something concerning salvation or spiritual matters with rhetoric and rationale. It seems that these decisions are made with a different type of sense which transcends our "five senses" which includes the sense of feeling. Why would anyone surrender their whole life to something that they have never known in a practical sense? Is there anything at all practical about a God who has suffered with a mankind who rebelled in the Garden of Eden and then Cain murdered Able, sent prophets to his people only to have them murdered by the same people, to the point that no-one seeks after God, no not one does good and this God who is in unbridled control of the universe sends His beloved Son to suffer a hideous death on the cross by bearing all the sins of the world so that these rebellious people could be saved from their sins? Sometimes when I think about all of it I think I must have lost my marbles. I am a rationale man yet I have based my whole life and consciousness on the premise that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." No man has convinced me of this nor could he. A transformation had to have occurred within my heart before I could begin to accept such foolishness. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, for those of us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.Has not God made foolishness out of the wisdom of this world? For the world in it's wisdom didn't' even recognize God but it pleased God to save those who would believe in the foolishness of the message preached. For God chose the foolishness of this world to bring shame to the wise and God chose the weakness of this world to bring shame to the things which are mighty." 1 Corinthians 1And yet the Holy Spirit, or anything else, has never interjected himself directly into my life in any way. "But you beloved are not of the flesh but of the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of Christ dwells within you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ then that man does not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9 Why, you might ask? No one on this planet has ever believed more strongly than I do. Yet I have never received the first inkling of such 'better felt than told' feelings. Those that believe they have received, tell me to not question them. But inwardly I must. " But the fruits of the Spirit are joy, love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control." Galatians 5:23,24 " By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from bushes or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Thus by their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 16:20 " For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of love and peace and of a sound mind" 1 Timothy 1:7 " For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out "Abba Father". Romans 8:15To reiterate, We do NOT receive the spirit of fear from God. In fact "fear not" is the most repeated phrase in the entire Holy Bible. Although some of the fruits of the Spirit include our "feelings" the initiation of our fruit is in-bedded within our imparted faith. Faith where there was no faith. Believing when it makes no rationale sense. A total change of heart. Born again into the newness of life. Made alive by God even though we were dead in our transgressions and sins. None of this involves fear. We are a people of hope and faith. Remember that it was fear that caused Adam and Eve to run and hide from God after their transgression. Man has been running ever since. It has been God who has pursued us because of our fear and lack of trust in Him. But I have no guarantees, nor have I ever felt some overwhelming feeling. Facts and truth guide me, not just feelings. I've known way too many people whose feelings misguided them (including Paul, and Peter, and many others), and including my friends. I don't trust feelings. I do trust God and his word. I am wondering which facts and truths that are so overpowering that they guide your life to the point that you would walk by faith and not by sight? That would be some pretty powerful stuff. I, myself have never met Jesus the Christ and have never audibly talked with Him. I have never heard an audible word from God at all. I have read the word of God but at one time they were just words on a page. Now they are the breath of life. Why? Well I wouldn't know how to answer that if not for Holy scripture. " For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are saved it is the power of God" 1 Corinthians 1:18 I only believe in "foolishness" because my wicked heart has been changed and am no longer at "enmity" with God but call him friend. This is very unnatural. It is supernatural. It isn't about "feeling" but involves a different awareness. An awareness of who God is, who I am, and who my savior is. I apologize for disagreeing with so many of you. I wish sincerity was all that was required, for I clearly see your sincerity. God bless you all I think that it is because we are sincere that there is no requirement for an apology at all. We are sincere in our caring and we are also sincere in our humility. I am not trying to speak for others but I do know that those who have the fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control could hold no malice for anyone who disagrees with them. I, myself am ignorant of many spiritual things but I do know that there is a Spirit that lives inside of my heart that guides me to the paths of righteousness and convicts me of sin. I am still free to sin but it is ohhhhh so painful! Sinfullness has become some really bad tasting fruit and it used to taste so sweet. Buckrub, these are some good men here on this board. Sure we will disagree on some of the most important of matters but in some sense the disagreement is good. We learn from the disagreements. If we don't learn anything from others here, we learn a little bit about ourselves. All in all we come out a little better for it. If we didn't we wouldn't be pecking on a keyboard after midnight. ;D God bless you all, Doug
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Post by sw on May 24, 2009 21:29:36 GMT -5
Buckrub, The statement you made that concerns me the most is the one where you feel your sins were forgiven up thru your baptism but not from then on. How do you feel you get forgiveness from your sins committed after your baptism? Through faithfulness(on your part)? Steve
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Post by Buckrub on May 25, 2009 9:09:08 GMT -5
The 2nd law of pardon......by asking God to forgive me through prayer.....the gift that is given to Christians only.
I can't be good enough, I know that. I'll always sin (and Man, I'm good at it, it seems). His Grace has to come into play. But I have to "Walk in the light" (I John) as best I can or he isn't going to go the extra mile for me. He won't save everyone. That's what WE wish were true. We sometimes think that there's this one little thing to do, and after that His Grace erases every bit of our stupidity from then on. But, we are Free Moral Agents, and we'll answer for our actions, all of them, including the ones we did after salvation began. Obedience is a lifetime job. Salvation is not an event, it's a journey.
Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 were clearly part of the first wave of baptised believers, and members of this new Church. But they sinned and paid dearly and were rebuked and called sinners.
In Acts 8 Simon was specifically stated to be a baptized believer of this new religion.......but he sinned by being greedy and wanted to pay for the power to lay on hands. He was rebuked, and he was told to PRAY for his forgiveness. He clearly needed it. He wasn't pure just because he believed. He sinned after. He took action to rid himself of the sin. It can happen.
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Post by sw on May 25, 2009 10:31:02 GMT -5
:)What if you sin and didn't have , or take, the opportunity to pray for forgiveness before dying unexpectedly? Is that an "unforgiven" sin? Could you enter Heaven? Are you still a child of God? After baptism, or salvation, does relationship with God remain only when no sins exist?
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Post by dougedwards on May 25, 2009 20:45:46 GMT -5
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares 24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Do all who profess Christ with their mouth and are baptized truly saved and adopted sons into the Kingdom? Do not the goats feed side by side with the sheep and the tares grown in with the wheat? Could it be that Ananias and Sapphira were ones who accepted Jesus as their savior but not as their Lord? Could it be that Simon the sorcerer was only interested in the power but not too interested in the submission part of the faith?
I honestly believe that it would be very difficult for anyone who has not had children to even remotely have any understanding of God's love for His children. We as people have an expectation for our children but when they fail to meet our standards for them they are still our children and we still give our lives to them.
The Holy Bible seems clear on this issue. Until you receive Christ into your heart as Lord and Savior you are not His. When you do sincerely give your life to Him......then He holds you in His hand and no-one can take you from his grip. He will NOT discontinue the good work that is started within the heart of the one who truly believes. I don't believe that it isn't possible for one to turn away from the faith. But as stated in Galatians 5:18 "But if you are born of the Spirit then you are not under the law"
I also believe that a true believer can sin and sin repeatedly. But I do not think it possible that a born again son of God is able to sin for the long term impervious to the influence of the Spirit that brings all true Christians to repentance. And instead of the task of keeping the ten commandments I believe that we have an expanded knowledge of sin. This knowledge commands us to not only keep the letter of the law but also to keep a pure heart. We may fail at that but the Spirit is always there to guide us and lead us to repentance. A pure heart realizes that the grace that he receives is undeserved and that same grace proceeds from him who is saved only because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
If I am wrong about this then I wish someone would show me. I am open.
Doug
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Post by sw on May 25, 2009 21:58:13 GMT -5
Discussions like these, when approached with open, seeking minds, can be of great benefit. I have no pet doctrines to defend. I am in a state of constant learning and seeking. I am just where I am, currently, not where I'll be in 10 years.
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Post by ozark on May 25, 2009 22:31:47 GMT -5
Well put SW. I consider myself having a lot of shortcomings with respect to understanding the true meaning of scriptures. Even Jesus used parables as an aid to create understanding. And the person who understands Revlations must have a totally different mind than I have. Give me milk because I am a child unable to digest meats regarding this subject.
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Post by Buckrub on May 26, 2009 10:08:52 GMT -5
SW, I believe that's where God's Grace comes in. First chapter of First John is best at explaining this. If a man is "Walking in the Light".....doing his best (not just claiming to do his best while doing his worst, but really doing his best) to Walk with God.........to obey and ask forgiveness and do what he can all the time..........then the problem of a sin that occurs right before death becomes a non-issue.
I just think "Walking in the Light" does not mean sorta, kinda, maybe, occasionally, doing a little bit of good........it means really and truly working at keeping at it.
So, I have no issue or problem with that scenario.
And Doug....I'm truly sorry but I've first-hand witnessed a bunch of folks that I am 100% convinced that were TRUE BELIEVERS later become dark and ugly sinners.........it happens. I know it conflicts with the way you believe the Bible, but I don't think it contradicts anything. A man is a man. Good conscience won't get you there. I've been over that.
And if it is possible that Ananias and Simon were not true believers........well, I think that's stretching the Bible to merely make your point. It says they were.........and that's good enough for me. I don't need to twist what is said to gain anything. They were told to me to be Believers, and they then sinned.....badly. I don't see any reason to make anything else out of it. It is what it says it is. If not, why not?
And Ozark......man, I fully understand Revelations and will be happy to explain it to you anytime!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Post by whyohe on May 26, 2009 10:29:00 GMT -5
SW, in 1st john 3:4-6 you reat that the one PRACTICING sin is lawless but the one remaining in union with him (refering to jesus who took away our sins) does not PRACTICE sin. we are all subject to sinning due to inperfection but we dont want to practice sin, these are the ones that dont inherit GODs kingdom.
in MY understanding is that if we know it is wrong and against GODs law but do it any way and continue to do it then how can we be say we are with HIM. if we use our imperfection as an excuse to sin why should we be forgivin? if we take the attitude that all we have to do is pray for forgiveness and the heart isn't pure in its feeling of sorrow for our sin then should it be forgivin? as long as we dont PRACTICE sin (intenionally, figuring we will be forgivin) we can be forgivin. our heart has to be willing to serve GOD and in the right condition. Only we and GOD will truly know our heart. we can show to a degree what we are by what Galations 6:7,8 pionts out we will reap what we sow and that is visible for all to see.
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Post by Buckrub on May 26, 2009 10:32:13 GMT -5
Well there you go. Whyohe said it better'n I can or did..........
Thanks!
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Post by dougedwards on May 26, 2009 19:08:02 GMT -5
Very well said whyohe This has been a very good thread in that it gives opportunity to discuss our various interpretations of sin and salvation as it pertains to us and all of mankind. I, myself, certainly am no authority and only come from a perspective of personal and spiritual experience and my own interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. I feel that it is a great thing for Christian brothers who might come from different types of backgrounds to discuss their own views on how God perceives us before and after we have accepted Christ as our Lord and Savior. I have enjoyed this immensely and hope to hear more from others who might have their own perspective on God's love for us. Hebrews 6: 4-6 makes it clear that if any man has ACTUALLY been born of the Spirit and has tasted of the heavenly gifts and falls away from the faith then that man may NOT return to the fold. It doesn't get any clearer than that does it? But my question is.......how do we know when a man or woman has ACTUALLY been born of the Spirit? Also......what does "falling away" mean? Good questions to ponder. The apostle John's writings are so precious to us. John writes to what he calls, "little children" of the faith, and tells them that if anyone of them says that he does not have sin then that person is deceiving themselves. But if they would only confess their sins then they have a faithful advocate with the Father who is just to forgive their sins and cleans them from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1: 8-10. However, I do believe that this thread has taken off on a tangent of sorts. That isn't a bad thing in my opinion. There has been an expression of fear and uncertainty even AFTER salvation and that baffles me since I have interpreted the Holy Scriptures to say that all of God's people have an advocate with the Father who is faithful to forgive and put their feet back on the paths of righteousness. Is that a scary thing? Doug
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Post by ozark on May 26, 2009 19:33:55 GMT -5
What is baffeling are the various understandings. Some claim that Christ died on the Cross for our sins and that He took care of that issue. He has already paid the price for us is an often quoted statement. Then there are the promises and the absolutes that must be done. Like being born again. Like Repent and be Baptized and thou shalt be saved. That doesn't say maybe or provided you meet other requirements. It is a thou shalt be saved. Then at every funeral we hear spoken things we know can't always be facts. This person is already with Jesus and you will meet them again. Obviously some of the dead may not make it and obviously where then meet may be in question. How realistic it would be if I heard a preacher say; This sole has gone on to meet Gods judgment and we hope that his destination is heaven. It is up to you to make that your destination while you are alive. There are so much pretense that there are much confusion. I urge everyone to seek truth, recognize truth and follow your best understandings. I cannot believe that God asks for more of us. Ozark
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Post by Buckrub on May 27, 2009 11:24:49 GMT -5
Ozark, that is exactly what I've heard Preachers' say at funerals all my life. I never met a Preacher that KNEW where the guy was going.
I went to a FEW funerals where they obviously tried to 'preach a sinner into heaven' .... just because he was dead, they assumed he was good.
The real issue here is: 1) Will everyone on Earth be saved merely because Christ died? 2) If not, what is the criteria for determining which side YOU are on? 3) If there is some criteria, is the criteria within YOUR control solely, or God's? Do you have any say in the matter? How much? Where would you go to find out what the criteria is, if it exists? 4) If there is no criteria (Universalism), how do you reconcile God hating sin?
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Post by ozark on May 27, 2009 13:10:58 GMT -5
when Buckrub and I start agreeing, which seems to be coming to pass , then the whole issue is in trouble. So we try to understand and get different views on what exactly the criteria is. If man cannot save himself then somehow he must put himself in the right position mentally and spiritually and hope that God will take care of it. We read where it isn't Gods will that any should perish. PERISH? Does that mean become nothing. We read where the sole that sins shall die. If we sin does that mean our sole did also? Then there are those who take another position and claim that mankind cannot accept that they are born, live, die and then rot and be no more. To not accept this fate they have invented all manner of ways to live on after death. Every group of people finds a way to avoid becoming a nothing after death. Some of us are convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that we have been visited by the Holy Spirit and that makes us a believer in a avenue that isn't our intelligence or ability to understand the word of God as written and often changed in the Bible. I really appreciate those who have responded to this thread with sincerity and with hope that they will find the way or already have. I cannot save you, If you cannot save yourself then hopefully you will please God. Remember it is not his wish than any should perish. Buckrub, for me to read a post you wrote where I find no reason to disagree scares me. LOL Ozark
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Post by Buckrub on May 27, 2009 13:54:49 GMT -5
Ozark, I'll close this thing.........(We can always start another one)......by saying that your last comment tickled me. I have a friend (actually two who do the same thing) that I discuss things with via email and at another chat site. It's gone on for many more years than anything you and I have done.....and on literally hundreds of topics (mostly political, some religious). It tickles me so much that I will hear him say on almost EVERY discussion, should it go on long enough......"You know, Buckrub, I think this is the first time you and I have agreed and that scares me".......
Yet he says it almost every time....at least every other time. He just has a perception that we are 100% opposite, and we aren't. I think it's because I don't let him slide on anything.......if he makes a mistake, I point it out. He does same for me. It bothers him for me to point out his 'errors'. It doesn't faze me in the slightest for him to point out mine!!! Ha.
I just have to laugh.........
Next???
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Post by huntingmike on May 28, 2009 1:16:58 GMT -5
I will add my understanding of the first post about Joel Osteen. A simple prayer of faith will bring salvation to a sinner if that sinner has heard The Word and been brought to a knowledge in his heart of stone, of his condition of being lost without Jesus The Christ. Man is born of water through his birth in this world. If he his to be born of the Spirit it must be through the power of God. "It pleased God through the foolishness of preaching where by men shall be saved". The God Head is FATHER, Son, and HOLY SPIRIT. Man is created body, soul, and dead spirit (stony heart) to God. The body is flesh and will go back to the dust. But the spirit will go back to God who gave it. The soul of man is made up of emotion, will, and intellect. His spirit was once a live when Adam walked with God. But he sinned and God did not lie when he told Adam and Eve they would surely die if they took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Then they surely died spiritually and then latter physically. The bible says God is greater than mans heart. If a man can continue to sin willfully or mistakenly and his heart is not condemned. It is still stone and he is not saved no matter how many prayers he has prayed or how many times baptized in water because it takes the HOLY SPIRIT to give spiritual life to a dead spirit." You must be born of the Spirit." With the heart man believes and then confession is made unto salvation. It is the difference between eternal life or eternal separation from God and all that is Holy. If you have a relationship of spirit unto God you are a child of his. If not you are not his, period.
Luke says, " The rich man in hell had feeling of pain,saw, thirsted, talked, and had compassion for his family." Examples of the body and soul but he had no life of spirit or relationship even though he was a son of Abraham. For he was separated from all that was good.
Through a simple prayer a child or a condemned prisoner on death row or anyone else can be saved if they surrender to the plan of God through the work of the Holy Spirit to have a relationship with him. I personally think it is amazing. IHS
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Post by davewolf on May 30, 2009 21:47:56 GMT -5
I'm certain God wouldn't turn his back on those who never had a chance to read the Bible. Although our Bible is how we learn, that and through faith. i believe in hell, although I think our sins are covered by the blood Jesus shed on the cross. But when someone loses a young child that wasn't old enough to read or believe--I think God covers them, as he does those who haven't become 'civilized" as we call it. God Bless, Dave
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Post by huntingmike on May 31, 2009 19:11:59 GMT -5
I also am certain God will not turn his back on inocent children.There are certain scriptures of sanctifacation refering to children of believers. I am certain that God is in control and He loves children and knows more about it than I do.
We have the Bible as our guide, to those of us who have heard The truth. We need to search it to see that we have eternal life. So that we share what we have seen and experienced. We are judged only on what we can or should do. We are not judged on what we can not do. That is why the blood of Jesus of Nazerath was freely shed on the cross. It is what he did for man to give us a way to be spiritually born again. I just want to point out that The Lord said, "You must be born of the Spirit." It is a real birth of spiritual life and not just an example of change of mind. I was born of spirit and He changed my life and we have a relationship. I know I belong to him. When you have that, scripture says, "That perfect love casts out all fear." Meaning fear of condemnation. IHS Rev. Mike
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2009 20:24:46 GMT -5
According to the Word of God we are right with God because of His kindness, love, mercy, our rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.....Not by the righteous things we have done....All these wonderful works of grace He has poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior......It's the finished work of Christ that brings the rest and assurance and eternal life that is promised to all that believe. Eternal means eternal any way you look at it. ;D ;D ;D
In His Service, Zen
Tit 3:3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. Tit 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, Tit 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
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Post by huntingmike on May 31, 2009 20:40:09 GMT -5
AMEN and AMEN, IHS Rev. Mike
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Post by whyohe on May 31, 2009 23:03:46 GMT -5
panhandle, i might be misunder standing your reply and if i am i appoligize. to me it seems like you are saying that if a person murders some one and knows hes wrong and isnt sorry he is still an heir with CHRIST?
Titus 3:7 (latter part) we MIGHT become heirs, with the HOPE of eternal life.
Titus 3:10-11 as for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the wayand is sinning, he being SELF CONDEMNED.
Hebrews 10:26 for if we practice sin willfully after receving the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is NO LONGER ANY sacrifice for his sins left.
Hebrews 11:6 more over, with out faith, it is impossible to please GOD well, for he that approches GOD must beleave that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of thoes earnestly seeking him.
it is threw CHRIST'S sacrifice that we all have a chance at eternal life. In my understanding we still have to keep GODs word and do HIS will all the time to gain eternal life. we all make mistakes and sin but it is our HEART FELT REPENTANCE for thoes sins and belief in CHRISTs sacrifice that keeps un in that HOPE of eternal life.
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Post by ozark on Jun 1, 2009 3:48:52 GMT -5
My thinking runs parallell to whyone. I think we are saved to serve and we don't get eternal live because of what Christ did. That provide us hope but there are obligations to seeing that hope a reality. You must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and exactly, precisely what is the experience of being born again? I personally believe that it is receiving a message through the Holy Spirit that you have been accepted by God as a servant. I think a that moment you are acceptable to God but I can't accept that it means you are going to have eternal life regardless of the life you live thereafter. It is said that He that endurety to the end the same shall be saved. I think you must walk that straight and narrow path that leads to heaven rather than that broad one that leads to destruction. I believe that once you are truly born again you have gained a certain knowledge regarding the reality of salvation and that since you are in this special group you must strive to avoid sin and should you get off the straight and narrow path you must ask for forgivness with a heart that feels remorse and is sincerely sorry for your personal failure. There is still hope but there is some earning to do on your part. Now, let me state clearly that my beliefs are my understandings and that I have a lot of weak places in my fence of security. I have hope of enduring until the end and gaining eternal life but I don't have a guarantee that I cannot mess it up. I am human and I need all the help I can get to live in a manner that is pleasing to God.
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 1, 2009 11:50:01 GMT -5
Being here at work and not having time to respond to the concerns of the meaning of some scripture I do want to point out that you can't extrapulate sentences from the Holy Scriptures and allow them to stand on their own out of their contexts. All in all the scriptures are VERY clear that grace is offered to all but is NOT accepted by all. To accept this grace a person must submit himself totally to the Lord in repentance of the his sin that caused his condemnation. As has been said before.......there is a difference between accepting the sacrifice of God through Christ as a benefit to you and accepting Christ as your LORD and savior. More on that to come.
Also I would point out that the greek word that is translated "hope" in the new testament has a different meaning than we would have for it in our contemporary time. The word "hope" in ancient times meant that there was something that you would look forward to. In our current venacular it indicates that it is something that may or may not occur. Not so for those who wrote the scriptures.
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Post by ozark on Jun 1, 2009 13:38:40 GMT -5
You mention the word hope meaning one thing today but that is different from what the writers of the Bible undestood it to mean. I agree with that along with the hundred of others which have changed the meaning of scriptures. This is why I contend that if the Holy Spirit speaks to a person it superseeds what the Bible may be thought to mean today. Obviously one cannot be born again in the same context that they were first born. It is my guess that it means you become a new person because your mind has been changed. You cannot be a new person with the body in mind because it doesn't become new. If you have terminal cancer at the time you are born again you will still have it. If you lost an arm and then are born agiain you will still be short an arm. I have read often where the Greek word or the Hebrew word translated into english changed the meaning. That may be so and that may not be so. Man has claimed much which is bull. Did they have a dictionary defining the meaning of all the languages or has someone made a claim to make the Word of God meet their ideas? If we can't read the Bible and accept that it is factual why bother? When we read that not a word will be changed is that a false statement? I do not think that one has to understand Greek and Hebrew and know which meanings of words have been altered to understand the important facts and truths of the Bible. And what is the value of quoting the Bible about any subject if it can't be taken as the authority. I see room for a lot of confusion. Ozark
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 1, 2009 18:03:31 GMT -5
You mention the word hope meaning one thing today but that is different from what the writers of the Bible undestood it to mean. I agree with that along with the hundred of others which have changed the meaning of scriptures. This is why I contend that if the Holy Spirit speaks to a person it superseeds what the Bible may be thought to mean today. Obviously one cannot be born again in the same context that they were first born. It is my guess that it means you become a new person because your mind has been changed. You cannot be a new person with the body in mind because it doesn't become new. If you have terminal cancer at the time you are born again you will still have it. If you lost an arm and then are born agiain you will still be short an arm. I have read often where the Greek word or the Hebrew word translated into english changed the meaning. That may be so and that may not be so. Man has claimed much which is bull. Did they have a dictionary defining the meaning of all the languages or has someone made a claim to make the Word of God meet their ideas? If we can't read the Bible and accept that it is factual why bother? When we read that not a word will be changed is that a false statement? I do not think that one has to understand Greek and Hebrew and know which meanings of words have been altered to understand the important facts and truths of the Bible. And what is the value of quoting the Bible about any subject if it can't be taken as the authority. I see room for a lot of confusion. Ozark Ben......all meaning of all words have been changed and they all change daily. No one word actually means the exact same thing to any two people. Without getting too much into the philosophy of rhetoric I will give two examples. First the word SCAN. If someone asked you to scan a document for them and report on what you have read you would most probably interpret that to mean that you would "skim" or quick read the document and report your interpretation of it and you would be using the most widely accepted dictionary meaning of the word. However just 30 years ago that would not be the case. In 1975 the meaning of the word SCAN was to take an INTENSE examination or to scrutinize such as would be done with a CAT SCAN or a radar scan. We wouldn't want a CAT SCAN to only take a cursory look at our bodies if we were doing it to possibly detect cancer. This word "scan" was misused so often that the preferred dictionary meaning changed it to mean almost the exact opposite of it's original meaning. We can go back only 200 years and the British term for "bow legged" was "cute". It was a rather derogatory term. So I will ask this question. Should we not be engaged in conversation at all since we can't be sure of any word's exact meaning as it applies to the person who is relaying his thoughts via the medium of language? If someone in the Savage Message Board says that he gets better accuracy using bullet/sabot combinations that are hard to push down the bore......do we discount everything that man has to say about the subject only because we can't be sure of his meaning of the term "hard to push"? As followers of Christ we are instructed to worship Him in Spirit AND in Truth. What does that mean? Well, we know that Jesus himself gave credence to the Holy Scriptures because he quoted them so often. In fact when Jesus was tempted by Satan with words, Jesus responded to Satan with only scripture. How can we separate the truth that is revealed in scripture from the guidance that is received from the Holy Spirit? In my opinion they cannot be separated. Any thoughts or comments? Doug
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