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Post by doc25 on Aug 28, 2014 11:57:56 GMT -5
Hi new here been lurking for a while trying to figure a few things out. I have an ml2 in 50 cal and was wondering if you could use the 500 smith bullets for sabotless? Also wondering about knurling bullets. Is this done to make them larger or smaller? Would you knurl the 500 smith bullets to decrease the size but allow the friction fit in the 50? I would also like to point out that it appears cabelas canada (not sure about the us) has stock of more blued ml2's. Did they make more parts guns or starting another run?
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Post by rangeball on Aug 28, 2014 12:19:34 GMT -5
Doc, Welcome.
Knurling is done to increase the diameter of a bullet to get the desired friction fit. The only way to decrease the diameter that I'm aware of is to swage it through a smaller sizing die, with the adjustable offering more flexibility but at a greater cost. Well worth it though in my opinion.
Potential for success will depend on your individual bore size. I set up a buddy's dad's CVA accura using BH209 sabotless with the .500 hornady 300 gr, and they're a great fit out of the box with his bergara barrel that specs right at .500 on the lands. There are some savages that are this tight but most seem to be somewhere between .501-.503. The more you have to knurl to get desired fit, the less the potential accuracy in my opinion. Of course a good quick hitting psi duplex may change this, but most effort is focused on .45s so I haven't seen much in regards to a .50.
I've shot the .500 300gr hornady sabotless from my SMI douglas .500 land spec barrel with ok results, never really played with load development because it shoots the .500 Thors MOA or better if I do my part. In my opinion if one wants to shoot sabotless in a .50 this is where they should start. Contact Terry at Thor bullets for a sizing sample pack and he'll send you 4 bullets to test for fit, one each of .500 through .503 in .001 increments. Order a pack of the ones that provide the best fit and see if accuracy is up to your expectation. Again the closer to .500 your lands are, the better the accuracy potential with these bullets. If they shoot to your expectations, terminally I don't think they can be beat. Devastating on deer.
If you search I think Wilmsmeyer experimented with sabotless in a .50 savage way back when, and I'm positive onecardchuck did in addition to myself.
Best of luck.
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Post by doc25 on Aug 28, 2014 12:47:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the info so far. I have one of those "tight" savages. The standard mmp sabot gets plastic shaved off of it when loading. It takes over 40 lbs to push the sabot down the barrel with xtp's. I ordered some of the hph24's and 3 pedal e-z's to see how they fit. I am considering trying sabotless though.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 28, 2014 12:52:11 GMT -5
What fps and distance are you wanting to shoot? Sounds like you have a great candidate to find love with the Thors. If I were you I'd definitely email Terry and request a sample pack. I shoot them in my SMI douglas .50 with 42gr of N110 at 2300 fps with a Fed 209A primer. You can't go crazy with high PSI loads due to the skirt, but they're a great bullet if your gun likes them, and best part, no more sabots thorbullets.com/
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Post by doc25 on Aug 28, 2014 13:18:18 GMT -5
Ranges would be less than 200yds probably. I would be using them primarily for deer as we have a muzzle loader season. We have elk and moose as well but no special season yet. At this point it's a stock ml2 and I'm not looking to break any speed records with the bullets. Just decent accuracy and knock down power.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 28, 2014 13:34:28 GMT -5
If it shoots for you you won't be able to beat the thor terminally. It's point and shoot to 200 yds at 2300 fps which easily obtainable with a variety of powders, 2" up 2" down. I sound like a broken record but your expectations scream for this bullet.
I know onecardchuck's savage bore was on the looser side and the .503 provided his best fit, and he killed a nice buck at almost 200 yds. I've killed paper at 200 yds and beyond but my farthest shot on game with them was only about 150, two does two separate years, both down in less than 10 yds. My newphew now uses this gun and load as I've moved on to a .45 rempac.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 28, 2014 13:36:40 GMT -5
Had another thought. Federal is releasing a new .50 sabotless bullet this fall, supposed to be on sale some time in September, that is a solid copper like thor but instead of varying size skirts it has a polymer base cup and skirt to handle different bore specs. I suspect it will shoot very well and perform on game like a thor but time will tell.
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Post by 10ga on Aug 28, 2014 14:28:05 GMT -5
My latest MLII picked up used has a tight bore also. I haven't done load developement etc... yet but in testing for function i found that BCR (black crush rib) with 250 SST loaded OK and gave easy ignition. My favored loads of BCR or orange sabots and .458 bullets were way too tight so went to the 250 SST in the BCR and all seems OK. Your results may differ. 10 ga
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Post by doc25 on Aug 28, 2014 21:22:08 GMT -5
Guess I'll see after I get these sabots. Would prefer to do without them though. Thanks for the link to Thor bullets. Are sabotless hard to load? Or should they be about the equivalent of a sabot?
Is Remington coming out with the new bullet for their new ML? Is that one supposed to be smokeless?
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Post by rangeball on Aug 28, 2014 22:53:33 GMT -5
Doc, on a fouled barrel the properly sized thors load with medium light effort. Not hard by any means. Order a sizing pack. They're free.
I don't believe the new Remington is an sml and the federal sabotless bullet I described above is the bullet the are releasing for it.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Aug 29, 2014 7:18:26 GMT -5
I also did away with sabots in my NULA by going to Thor. I'm iinterested to see how this new Federal bullet does and what it costs.
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Post by ateam on Aug 29, 2014 9:53:39 GMT -5
I have been tinkering with the thors this last week or so. My bore seems to be about .5025, and I would like the whole thor to ride on the lands. First I tried knurling which did increase the diameter, but marginally. What it also did was knock the skirt diameter back down to near .500 (and out of round I am sure). I am assuming these are pretty hard bullets, and was considering annealing them (polymer tips removed of course). Has anyone tried this? The skirt would certainly fill the bore better/ more fully with softer material.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 29, 2014 10:21:27 GMT -5
ateam, this thread may help with what you are looking for- www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/t6272-my-thors-are-to-smallRemember this guy is shooting BH209, and even with the lower pressure is getting rifling imprinted along the entire bullet shank. You can knurl the bearing surface above the skirt a bit to engage the lands, but look for medium light pressure when loading. You can use the socket trick to fine tune the skirt diameter to get exactly the fit you are looking for. If the new Federals are up to SML, they may make all of this moot as terminally they should perform just as well as the thors but without the tinkering to get perfect barrel fit.
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Post by doc25 on Aug 29, 2014 21:52:53 GMT -5
Another question. I've read people are using veggie wads and wool wads in sabotless, why?
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Post by rangeball on Aug 29, 2014 22:18:21 GMT -5
Primarily to seal the grooves and provide consistent ignition. I don't use them with the thors.
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Post by doc25 on Sept 1, 2014 13:40:14 GMT -5
I just read that thread about sizing the thors skirts. If you had some sort of top punch for them and welded the socket on to a shell holder you could put them in your reloading press, set it up and bang out 100 bullets.
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Post by ateam on Sept 1, 2014 13:48:41 GMT -5
You would need an arbor press, not a reloading press. I was thinking a punch and die might do it if you annealed the thing. I have an old partially pitted ML2 barrel that would make a great die body, the hollow point would be problematic though. And it would probably would end up all out of round.
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Post by ateam on Sept 1, 2014 13:49:30 GMT -5
Ah, I just re-read your post and you meant just for the skirt? I think a loading press would work fine for that.
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