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Post by airborneike on Aug 23, 2014 20:25:25 GMT -5
As a general rule, gadgets don't impress me much but every once in a while an idea or tool comes along that is helpful. I have recently repaired and set back the breech area of a few Smokeless muzzle loaders because of gas cutting. There is no definitive cause of the cutting but it is there. IMO not nearly enough attention is given to the mating of the breech plug and the barrel and as a machinist, I KNOW how difficult it is to cut a perfectly square,smooth and flat sealing surface inside the barrel. Even with a reamer, and definitely with a boring bar, there can be chatter and what is known as "cold buildup" on the cutting edge and it will cause the cut to not be smooth. In a thread some time back we were discussing ways to clean the sealing area and Richard De Simone showed a picture of a tool he used to clean that area. Expanding on his idea, I used an aluminum rod and turned it to fit a standard bolt action just shy of .700" and turned the nose to .605 to fit the normal dimensions of a standard Savage plug. the end of the tool is threaded to receive a brass "bolt" that holds the felt and abrasive paper. The brass bolt is threaded on the end to receive an 8x32 cleaning brush. The handle end is knurled for a better grip when spinning the tool. Thought first that the tool should be anodized but anodizing can be abrasive so the tools are coated with Norrels which is not as hard but actually has a bit of lubricity and won't gall an action. The action fit is close to keep everything square on the sealing shoulder. The small "dough nut" felt and sandpaper pieces are die cut and fit neatly to the tool. I have used grits as coarse as 80 when heavy damage needed to be cleaned but use 220 and 400 for normal cleanup. One would need to not be too aggressive on some of the tight fit custom guns but there is a good bit of tolerance in the headspace of Remington and Savage muzzle loaders. A 16 Gage bore brush is just about perfect for cleaning the internal threads. Midway USA is the only place I have found an 8x32 16 gage brush. This tool works and is very helpful in maintaining the breech plug area. I encourage you to make one for yourself if the tools are available but if you cannot then contact "Hillbill" Bill Travis. Not sure what the cost of this tool will be but we are not trying to sell these as a money making venture just trying to provide a very useful tool for the Savage plug crowd. All the best, Mike
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 20:35:37 GMT -5
Very nice tool! Thanks for your efforts in making smokeless safer and easier for everyone using the savage type plugs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 20:37:11 GMT -5
Bottom line, they work and work well. Upon examination of several different barrels I have come to the conclusion that this tool is needed in most barrels. Very few actually seal 100 percent and with this tool a perfect seal can be achieved. As Mike said, no one is making money on this venture, just trying to help the brotherhood . If they didn't work I wouldn't be using one.....
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Post by deadeye on Aug 23, 2014 20:40:04 GMT -5
I have one thanks to mike- it is superb & imo needs to be in everyones' sml toolbox//mike is the real deal!
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Aug 23, 2014 20:42:56 GMT -5
Hillbill, how much do you make these tools for? I may be interested in one. PM me if you don't feel comfortable making it public knowledge
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 20:55:23 GMT -5
Moderators will likely move this thread to the buy and sell section soon. Pm me for prices, as of yet I'm not sure til I get bore brushes here and figure out shipping etc
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Post by 7mmfreak on Aug 23, 2014 20:57:03 GMT -5
I dig the green one. I'll have some feedback for you on a couple of projects by the end of the week.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 20:58:51 GMT -5
That's superb! Nice work and thanks for sharing!
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Post by dirtboy on Aug 23, 2014 21:04:41 GMT -5
I have wondered a good way to clean this area. There are a lot of great minds on this forum. Hillbill you could PM me as well if you don't make it public knowledge. Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 21:41:46 GMT -5
what I will do is post them in the buy and sell when I figure out exactly what the cost will be, I need to get the brushes here and get shipping figured into the price.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 22:52:49 GMT -5
Great tutorial Mike! Thanks for making these available to us guys. We appreciate it!
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Post by linebaugh on Aug 24, 2014 7:21:54 GMT -5
Very nice and very simple solution, thanks for the idea sharing Airborne.
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Post by Dave W on Aug 24, 2014 7:53:34 GMT -5
Can you divulge the loads being primarily used in these barrels that had the cutting?
Nice craftsmanship and idea!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 9:06:06 GMT -5
Way to go Mike....Bill put my name on one of them plz sir.....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 9:45:01 GMT -5
Can you divulge the loads being primarily used in these barrels that had the cutting? Nice craftsmanship and idea! I was one of the guys that experienced the gas cutting. The first really bad incidence I've had. It was with a brand new barrel, and it was with a starter load, that was actually a powder puff load. Nothing was found to be suspect in the machining of the parts...so that's leave me to blame. Apparently, I had a piece of debris on the shoulder of the breech plug or stuck on the mating surface of the barrel. I didn't notice it, so it gas cut the plug. This tool should prevent that from ever happening again. Thanks again for the Breech Cleaning tool Mike!
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Aug 24, 2014 11:17:57 GMT -5
I had a barrel that we thought might not have been cut completely square from the manufacturer.... It always had some blowby . And as I worked up the loads and got to 5/65 red dot UNDER H4198 it really started getting worse...and yep just like Earnhardt I gas cut my plug , luckily it was minor enough that only.0005 had to be removed to reface the barrel. Thanks to those involved who saved my butt!!!. So I believe this tool is a very good Idea. And thank you Bill and Mike for your help and dedication to us guys Drop
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Post by charles on Aug 24, 2014 11:25:37 GMT -5
Hillbill please pm me on that cleaning tool Thanks Chris
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Post by rambler on Aug 24, 2014 11:27:26 GMT -5
Would this be something one would/could use on a break open action??
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 12:17:09 GMT -5
if it had a savage plug something similar could be used but it would have to be much shorter
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Post by dannoboone on Aug 24, 2014 12:19:28 GMT -5
Great thing about this board is that someone is always coming up with something for improvement.
Fantastic idea guys!! Hillbill, please let us know on the main board when you place the specifics in the buy, sell & trade section. Thank-you!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 12:20:32 GMT -5
I have checked several barrels with some being new and the machine finish on most leaves something to be desired. If your gun has been fired you can use this tool and shine a light and see the imperfections remaining, they will be dark colored.one can put a mirror finish on the face with this tool..
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Post by airborneike on Aug 24, 2014 12:38:41 GMT -5
Rambler
Like Bill said, it would be better if it were shorter but the tool needs to have a guide ie, action for alignment. You could make a shorter tool that rides on the internal threads and that might work. I will look into that.
I use this tool for cleaning the chamber of centerfire rifles with the appropriate brushes and mops.
The sealing area on a breech plug is a precision area and any dings and scratches are not helpful. If you drop a plug on the floor (been there,done that) look closely to see that a burr has not been raised on the edge of the shoulder and if it has, carefully clean that burr flat. We will probably never achieve 100% perfection in the seal but should still try.
Mike
Thanks for the encouraging comments
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Post by rambler on Aug 24, 2014 13:42:06 GMT -5
Rambler Like Bill said, it would be better if it were shorter but the tool needs to have a guide ie, action for alignment. You could make a shorter tool that rides on the internal threads and that might work. I will look into that. I use this tool for cleaning the chamber of centerfire rifles with the appropriate brushes and mops. The sealing area on a breech plug is a precision area and any dings and scratches are not helpful. If you drop a plug on the floor (been there,done that) look closely to see that a burr has not been raised on the edge of the shoulder and if it has, carefully clean that burr flat. We will probably never achieve 100% perfection in the seal but should still try. Mike Thanks for the encouraging comments Thank you for the advice. Greatly appreciated!
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Post by Richard on Aug 24, 2014 15:19:41 GMT -5
airborneike.................Coming to the last shoot at Piedmont this Saturday? Richard
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Post by airborneike on Aug 24, 2014 17:47:00 GMT -5
Rich DE,
Probably not. Don't have the competition "fire in the belly" and with my challenged mobility it is hard to survive a day there.
Brother Larry and James C will most likely be there.
You have been successful there from what I have heard this year. How are you standing in the Piedmont shooter of the year points?
All the best
Mike
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Post by Richard on Aug 24, 2014 18:30:45 GMT -5
Thanks Mike! Would be nice if you could make it ..............Right now I am in third place.........five points out! I would really have to kick butt and those other guys fall flat on their face.............which "ain't gonna happen!" Your brother and Paul are tough competitors. I think its going to be between Chris Jenkins and Jeff Godfrey. Thats a neat tool. Richard
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Post by rickyb on Aug 25, 2014 8:04:23 GMT -5
OK I understand the brush cleaning out the threads but lets talk a little more about the sandpaper and exactly what is being done here? Is it working on the area where the throat and barrel meet? A little more explanation on what to do and why we are doing it would help me. Thanks Rick
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Post by madcityhoosier on Aug 25, 2014 8:52:30 GMT -5
This maybe dumb, but I need to ask... Instead of trying to clean up the mating surfaces, would there be a way to put a gasket or crush washer in there to seal the breech plug shoulder to the barrel? I suppose removing the gasket would be an issue. Perhaps the pressures we're dealing with would be problematic too? Someone... set me straight!
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Post by airborneike on Aug 25, 2014 21:23:35 GMT -5
Rickyb,
The savage plug was designed to seal on the small flat surface just behind the "nipple". The nipple or small end (.160" x .487) is not really part of the intended seal although it does interfere and slow the pressure moment a bit. What we are trying to do is to mate two flat surfaces to make a seal. Simple in theory but not so easy to accomplish when plugs are made by one company and barrels are threaded by another.
IMHO this is not a big problem for most and a small amount of leakage is not a show stopper for those who shoot modest loads...but...if you are shooting loads in the "hotter" and higher pressure range it can be serious.
Gas cutting on a larger scale can be equivalent to a pierced primer or case separation in a centerfire rifle and that is never good for ones eyes.
Madcityhoosier,
I don't know if a crush washer would work or not. Interesting idea but I have no experience or knowledge in that area.
The cleaning tool with the brush, felt and abrasive rings just makes it simple and easier to keep the internal threads and the sealing areas clean and smooth.
Alright 7mmfreak, watch out, I may just send you a pink one. Be better that that brown color we used on your rifle :-) :-)
Mike
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Post by 7mmfreak on Aug 26, 2014 12:37:15 GMT -5
I'm not scared; real mean can pull off pink. I heard a girl say that once. I dig the brown too. Ugly keeps people from wanting to monkeyfist my guns. Besides, pretty is as pretty does, has done, and will do. I'm still waiting on the base and BEAST from Nightforce to show up.
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