SML Tug of WAR's

[Deleted]

"First, only, and last SML."

Thank you for the comic relief!

Good luck controlling yourself.

[Dave W]

Aug 22, 2014 23:14:30 GMT -5 hankinsrfls said:

Guys... I have been reading this thread and I was informed (by personal mail)that it was aimed at me. I believe in his mail he said " The guys that attended the shoot seem to think you are a nice guy, to me and others you are antagonistic, egotistical and irritating...

I want to say that I received a lot of razzing when I joined this board. I took it without poise. I learned who was who and how to take them and their since of humor. I never new what was going to come from cowhunter and if you didn't know him some of his stuff could be considered just plain crazy talk. Now that I have a chance to razz a few of them back it seems to me that some of them are jumping on the defensive side. It is all in good fun. MAN is the most competitive creature on earth, so it is natural to make challenges and say, my truck is bigger than yours, My deer has more points, my fish was bigger, its just the way we are made. But we have a few that don't like to or can't stand to be corrected or proven wrong.

One of the guys at the shoot told me I had a strong personality,,, but that was a good thing. I will get straight to the point, try to make it as clear as I can as quickly as I can and express my opinion, I don't want to sound like I know everything about smokeless muzzleloaders because I don't. I learn quite a bit by reading this board. If my post offends some of you then I am sorry but that's the way I post and if correcting a post that has bad information in it is the wrong thing to do then I guess I will be the bad guy on Doug's board. We can't afford to post bad information, we don't want anyone to get hurt or even killed shooting their smokeless rifles, or waist money ordering the wrong part(s) because so and so said it is what they use when in fact it ain't what they use, they just misspelled a word or completely typed the wrong thing.... We all do it and correction is needed on the board. so don't get to offended when it happens to you.

I came to this board, not to sell my rifles, but to introduce you all to a different way to ignite your loads. I read over and over about ignition problems with the primers and powders you were using. It has been blamed on everything from not enough pressure to it was too cold. I was challenged to test my system, so I did. In -4 degrees with a powder that was said to be impossible to ignite at those temperatures, I had no problems and a 50 FPS slower velocity than I get when its 90 degrees. I tested it with drop in fit bullets, still no problems. I tested it with the lightest bullets I could get, 185 grain drop ins almost, still not problems. I tested it in the poring rain and blasted my gun with a high pressure water hose, still no problems. I built a 416 to test the extreme pressures, shot loads of 125 grains of H4350, still not problems. Is my system better than the next guys,, I believe it is,,,,,,and so do several others that attended the shoot and got to see it in action...to hear Ford claim, their truck is the best, Chevy claims the same thing, but we all know the Dodge Cummins Diesel rules in the truck world. I don't expect to sell everyone on this board my ignition system, but if you are looking for something different it might work for you. I do thank those that have bought it and I am sure you will be happy with it.

I don't think I have ever said "buy my rifle it's better" I only wanted to help those that needed or wanted a more reliable system. Nothing worse than it not going off when you need it most.. Now on to another topic....

I see where someone was concerned that there was drinking at the shoot.... YES THERE WAS. When have you seen 25 men get together for all you can eat boiled shrimp and pulled pork and not have a beer. I don't think the first can was popped until after dark on Friday and all the shooting was over. On Saturday,, The cook (a total non shooter) was probably drinking by noon but he was 40 yards from the shooting range manning the smoker (the one that cooks meat) you talk to him about the smokers we have and he wants to know how you put a rack of ribs in that little hole. As for the rest of us, well everyone kept it well under control and there was absolutely no one drunk or even close to it on the range. If you are a non believer in a few beers and some foul language then you probable should avoid large get togethers of men with guns...

The one guy that was barfing, was it two many beers Friday night or was it the 13 pounds of shrimp he tried to eat,,, or maybe it was because he worked third shift and didn't get any sleep the day of the shoot, when he should have been sleeping he was driving to the shoot. Glad you made it ole buddy and that you kicked but,, hung over or not.... LOL> oneshotike is on my top list of best buddies,

As for the little boy that shot his 22... That was my nephew Garrett. He is 12 not 10 and he is very small for his age. He has killed more deer than you can shake a stick at and his longest shot with a 25-05 is 350 yards year before last. Dropped her in her tracks. Last year he anchored a 6 point buck with one shot from a 375HCR during youth season. His Dad, (the guy that made the 3 gallons of salsa) was standing directly behind him the hole time. How do you tell a kid he cant shoot when he was running and re-setting the gongs for us all day. I shot the first shot from his 22 to make sure it was on target and it was. He rang that gong almost every shot. If he shot a total of 40 rounds that would be tops.

Now, I hope my presents on this board is a positive thing most of the time, I am sure once in awhile I will offend or say something that might rub some the wrong way, but I think each and everyone of us does that from time to time. If we don't we ain't saying much. Now I am here to stay so "can't we all just be friends"?

Jeff.

I know Guy and we talk/text nearly everyday. I can't read his mind but I don't believe you are the sole reason for his speaking out. It is the state of the board in general. This place is quickly disintegrating into another Archerytalk, for those not familiar with it, opinionated, agenda driven backbiting goes on there nonstop. I have not seen the board in such a state since the Toby incident and the "Randy days".
Are you the root cause of it-NO, one individual has been on here for years passing out snide comments and insults with a relatively free pass in doing so. We all have to take responsibility for the state of the board, I am certain I have rubbed people the wrong way at times, sometimes purposely. When RB was the primary builder on the board, there was no competition like there is now with all the builders available. Just like AT, brand loyalty starts to creep in, and that's when the pissing matches begin.


At one time on here respect was given, it did not have to be earned, anymore, not so much. Maybe it is time for me to go too, I am old fashioned, I was taught actions speak louder than words and lead by example.

[wilmsmeyer]

Ohio guy and others,

Wilms here. This is a good thread of getting everyone back to square one. The board has changed in so many ways. So has everything in life. I understand everyone's, comments and like ET, remember the good old days of the hunting rifle and the original ML10 in 50 cal. Seems weird to talk about it like that.

Many of the hunters here that walk the woods, sit in breezy tree stands in the cold, are still doing their thing with the smokeless ML10 in .50. It has become so easy to get going and be ready to hunt that there just isn't much to talk about anymore for them. They are hunting, killing deer and have everything figured out. Our camp alone has over 75% shooting a stock Savage ML10 when ML season rolls around. No misfires, no bad flyers and everyone has a killing machine backed by wise shooting decisions. Deadly bunch.

No, I don't post much on the smokeless board anymore unless it's something I know about or something I feel I can contribute to. 95% of the readers wouldn't give my input much thought anymore because they are in a different league and smokeless culture. I know what I know, I know where I came from, and where I arrived is exactly where I wanted to be. A deer killer with a reliable gun and load. I'm not trying to be a bragger, but my Savage had killed EVERY deer I have shot at except one and I missed him clean due to a tree branch in the way. Over 50 deer...maybe 75. Not because my gun is amazing or better then your...because I choose to only shoot the kill 100% of the time. No antlers are big enough for me to take a stupid shot.

I read, DAILY, (Edge hasn't relived me of my duty to moderate yet) this forum and the guys doing extraordinary things with their ML's. IT'S GREAT! I haven't really noticed that newbies have been maligned or bad talked. If I did I would PM those who were "out of line" or delete posts that were flames. That's my job.

What's been new for me the past few years is the change here in my county in NYS that let's us use rifles. It has led me down a path that I wished were available the last 25 years of my hunting in this great part of Western NYS. My sole reason for getting a Savage was for the ballistic "equivelent" of a centerfire inside 250 yds. The intrigue of launching 250 gr TMZ's at 2,800 fps with close to MOA accuracy. And I did it. And it took a lot of work and money.

Now, with rifles being allowed, I've been able to open up a whole new area of interest that I had lost 25 yrs ago. Growing up in the Catskill Mountains of NYS, we could use rifles and I regularly hunted woodchucks and deer with rifles. I began reloading and that was fun. Moving out to Western NYS...all of a sudden I had to use a slug gun. What a downgrade from what I grew up with. Most of our camp tinkered with ML's...Thunderhawks, knights and others in an attempt to get "an edge" over the slug guns we had. And WE DID. My Knight was awesome, and still is..or could be if I used it to hunt the way we still hunt to this day. But the Savage had intrigue...and the stands at field edges begged for that lazor beam of a center fire. Now we have centerfires. I am not married to my ML or hunting only with ML. I am married to HUNTING and using the best available weapon that I can master. Reloading my 3 centerfires is extremely rewarding and that's where my passions are right now.

These days, the Savage comes out for ML season only and we are usually not buck hunting anymore and are after slam dunk shots of does trying to fill permits. We take close, easy shots. The power level of the Savage is tremendous and the hot loads of old are too much and ruin meat deer. So I have regressed to less than book loads to kill deer cleanly without destroying them. Old blackpowder type ballistics with a cleaner gun. I destroyed a lot of deer with my Savage. If all you want is hind quarters and loins then go ahead and blow up a deer's shoulder. Done with that unless it's the big one for the wall and you have to hit him right there..right now.

I'm still here....watching and reading everyday. I like it and understand there has been a change. It is still interesting but beyond my realm, skill or desires. Not a bad thing just the way it is.

Any of you guys feeling left out or have more simple desire, DON'T be afraid to post your questions. Most of us "older" more "simpler" guys are lurking in the shadows waiting to help you.

It's all good and we also have PM's if you think your questions are not important to the masses...or feel they would be "stupid". This board is not about putting anyone down. This board is here for all. PM me any time...I am viewing at least 2 times a day in the early am and late pm....I do have another life then Doug's. LOL. Peace.

[deadeye]

I was at the shoot & pretty much in the middle mix at the bench most of the time. I like bill am normally very quiet usually sitting off taking in the action,i was the other front line hawk,bill & I had eye contact several time scanning just taking it in & observing whatever people were doing.

I can say there was no boasting,pouting or even a hint of any frictional talking the I observed,just good quality conversations. absolutely nothing negative from my view.

john- the happy cook- jeff h. nailed it- john was always courteous & his bag was always discussing food,recipes etc-always politely asking if you needed anything. I certainly enjoyed talking to him. he is in to cooking much like we are into mz-again nothing negative in my view. he did a great job

garret- when I arrived I had to go about 1/2 mile down the road to get some dishes & such out of my camper,jeff h offered his atv in which I agreed to take. I could tell with garret's face he wanted to go so I asked-he said yes. garrets first words-your deadeye,i replied yes but it does kinda sound like superman which I'm not- he understood & chuckled & I laughed also. as I was driving garret was gauging my driving abilities searching for trust-this kid is sharp & very instinctive. when we arrived to where he shot his 6 pointer he told me the whole story & I thought it was great and he should be proud. its not my duty to judge but my internal thoughts this young man is raised right! garret was so ambitious that he wanted to shoot the heavy hitting mz's in which his request was correctly denied. bottom line I wish there were more kids there to shoot & enjoyed watching garret bang the gong's a little. he is a shooter for sure

funnel- yes I personally witnessed that event & I thought that funnel blends in so well with the barrel it could happen much easier than I would have previously thought. I 'm not going to call this negative since a couple of other hawks quickly brought it to the shooters attention which is what you want in that situation-all people looking out safety wise for all. no negative looks from the shooter or anyone else in my view-just handled properly. it was also discussed by a few to paint the top outside flo-orange to help prevent this. or wrap maybe colored band of electrical tape. phil 's way would be good too.

so its not a perfect world but I did witness 1 negative that I'm sure will be addressed next shoot as this is my first voicing -

I was the only one at the bench & my mz was hot& on the bags but bolt slid back- one gent took a short-cut twice across the range with a fire-arm on the bags-I know it was mine. I said nothing until now.

remedy- a piece of warning tape so all shooters to be routed in a direction behind the benches

attending members ribbing each other here- we know this is for fun & the keyboard will not get between us all & you would only understand if you would have been there!

so for the people reading don't let a remark by any get your keyboard moving in the wrong direction- have a question- submit it to one of the approx. 25 horses that were there.

I hope the many that could not attend will make plans to attend & you got a year to find a load & a way even if it means carpooling like sml & Alabama did. great job guys!

davew -you are not going anywhere-we like having you around!

[ET]

Hey DW

I know what you are experiencing as I have felt this also and wonder if I belong here anymore? With the advancement of pioneering into other areas (calibers) there now exists a new trend and new participation that’s taking on a life of its own that doesn’t represent the old days. The loss of familiarity where one time you felt beckoning to join in to share your results or ideas for evaluating together but now it seems like experts in particular areas are dominating the board conveying what they believe is best. Sometimes I wonder if this is arrogance or a high level of confidence by the way they present themselves. Regardless of which, you feel like you are on the outside of it all. And to join in you need to buy or invest in specialized equipment. If you have the funds and this is your goal then all the power to you.

As for me I’m basically content with what I have that meets my needs but at times I miss the camaraderie that brought us all originally together. Overtime change occurs good or bad depending on your point of view. Regardless of which, you sort of have to go with the flow or move on if discontentment becomes overwhelming.

The one thing I can’t deny is that SML is now fused in my blood that encourages me to tag along learning new things. If it wasn’t for the more can be learned I would probably also bow out.


Ed

[Deleted]

wilmsmeyer,

I can't but feel partly/mostly to blame for the way you and others feel on the board.

I'm one of the guys that brought the SML "hot rodding" phase to the board. (I'm not bragging and no I'm not a pioneer) And by the sounds of it, it's not necessarily the path that some guys want the board to go down.
For me, being a "hot rodder" since a teen ager, bigger and faster has always been "better" to me.
I hate to hear that some of the "traditional" SML guys feel like they're left out, or that you think, "95% of the readers wouldn't give your input much thought anymore because we are in a different league..." (your quote). I hope you guys realize that the majority of my ideas came from input from guys like you.
I read something you guys said, and a light goes off in my head... A pretty dim light...OK, a night light...
I hope that by my pushing the limits with some of the SML's and T-Rex loads I shoot, didn't lead you to feel that way.
I'd like to think that some of the things I've done with bushings and primer channels that allow me to shoot the T-Rex loads will benefit others in some way shape or form.
Because realistically, it costs less than $100 for a .040" bushing plug, and you can drill out your own primer flame channel in mere minutes.
To me that's "cheap horse power".
I've done the majority of the SML hot rodding with the same guns, barrels and parts that you guys have, but the $900 scopes might be a little different story.
So I've been trying to do the "hot rodding" and experimenting with guns and parts that we all use and can modify, and therefore benefit from universally in the long run.

So once again, my apologies.

[linebaugh]

Earnhardt,
Don't think you need to apologize for anything and I know I shouldn't speak for others but I highly doubt anybody here has any ill feelings toward you and your work. Your pioneering with the sub cals is not my cup of tea but I read all your posts with zeal when they appear. And as you already stated you are benefiting the board with your work. I get to learn on your dime so it's really hard not to appreciate that.

Made a few friends on this board and for that I am really grateful. Learned some new things and for that I am also grateful. With that said I think it would be very hard to not see the discontent brewing and this thread is a great way to get it out in the open before the coffee is done.

I was a very active member on one of the major airgun forums and it started out like this board was when I started following it. It was a beautiful resource for free knowledge and was quite harmonious for years. Over time a few guys started to dominate the board and a click of people tried to ramrod every conversation not so much in a helpful way, more of a condescending way. For a long time I just ignored the posters I had no use for but it became harder with each passing week. I followed that board for years and it eventually bothered me enough that I just gradually slipped away. Many of the good guys on that board who really didn't need anybodys help or opinions gradually went silent. I still go back from time to time and now I see the moderators banning people for the same things that went on freely for years. In my opinion it was too little way to late and the board lost many talented and giving individuals.
On the airgun board as on this board there were some great minds and some of the best red blooded Americans you are likely to ever know. It's very nice to know there are still great, giving, helpful people in the world... now days we need them and there is a short supply.
I sincerely hope this thread gets everyone back on track and I thank the original poster for being brave enough to speak up and make public what a lot of us are obviously thinking in private. I'm sure the original post came with a lot of hesitation. I appreciate all the responses on this thread as many of you have described the feelings I have as well but could not worsmith to express. Some of you guys can run a gun and pen a response with some serious precision.

That's enough rambling from a loose nut for one day.

[rambler]

Aug 24, 2014 13:45:41 GMT -5 linebaugh said:

Earnhardt,
Don't think you need to apologize for anything and I know I shouldn't speak for others but I highly doubt anybody here has any ill feelings toward you and your work. Your pioneering with the sub cals is not my cup of tea but I read all your posts with zeal when they appear. And as you already stated you are benefiting the board with your work. I get to learn on your dime so it's really hard not to appreciate that.

Made a few friends on this board and for that I am really grateful. Learned some new things and for that I am also grateful. With that said I think it would be very hard to not see the discontent brewing and this thread is a great way to get it out in the open before the coffee is done.

I was a very active member on one of the major airgun forums and it started out like this board was when I started following it. It was a beautiful resource for free knowledge and was quite harmonious for years. Over time a few guys started to dominate the board and a click of people tried to ramrod every conversation not so much in a helpful way, more of a condescending way. For a long time I just ignored the posters I had no use for but it became harder with each passing week. I followed that board for years and it eventually bothered me enough that I just gradually slipped away. Many of the good guys on that board who really didn't need anybodys help or opinions gradually went silent. I still go back from time to time and now I see the moderators banning people for the same things that went on freely for years. In my opinion it was too little way to late and the board lost many talented and giving individuals.
On the airgun board as on this board there were some great minds and some of the best red blooded Americans you are likely to ever know. It's very nice to know there are still great, giving, helpful people in the world... now days we need them and there is a short supply.
I sincerely hope this thread gets everyone back on track and I thank the original poster for being brave enough to speak up and make public what a lot of us are obviously thinking in private. I'm sure the original post came with a lot of hesitation. I appreciate all the responses on this thread as many of you have described the feelings I have as well but could not worsmith to express. Some of you guys can run a gun and pen a response with some serious precision.

That's enough rambling from a loose nut for one day.

+1 on what linebaugh says.     I very much enjoy reading about the warp drive loads and the modest saboted loads.    I can't get enough of it.

Everyone has been very nice to me, and patient with my greenhorn questions.

Keep up the good work everyone!!!!!

[Richard]

Well I guess I should ad my $0.02 since I have been an active member on this board since 2007. I have been in my share of verbal battles with a number of members and the BOSS-------------The Goat Man, Edge. Fortunately, I have met Edge in person and know he is a good guy and a smart one but even smart people can disagree on things. I tend to be a "Doubting Thomas" and until I have sufficient proof I am wrong, I stick to my guns. My main deal is shooting...........a lot of it! And, I am good at it..........(yeah, I know bragging - Right Dave W?) However, I have proven myself in both the short and long range bench rest game so it is backed up braggin' not BS. What I try to provide to members of the board and particularly the new shooters that come on board, are real world loads that anyone can shoot in their rifles. I most always use generic bullets and readily available powders. My shooting set up is such that it allows for pretty precise shooting with no fatigue on my part. Hence I am able to shoot many rounds with out getting tired or beat up. This allows good reliable information for members. I think over the years I have provided lot of information which has helped members. From the number of PM's I get, it is obvious to me that I do. I have always made my phone number available to anyone who wanted information............whether about loads or building a rifle or just to BS. What bothers me? Is people who put their two cents in on a subject and have never once shown that they had any experience with the subject. They simply pick up information from other knowledgeable people and then present it as "in my experience...bla, bla "
But yes, the board has changed! It had to? As people were experiencing problems with their ML's, others came up with remedies which lead to other up grades and subsequently to the .45's (and thanks to Dave D and a few others). This opened up a whole new avenue of shooting and improved accuracy but we still had the sabot as the weak link.............then the sabot less thing started and little by little people saw the sabot sort of fall by the wayside. Tom Post's adjustable die help foster this accuracy asset............then full form.........along with bushing dies and carbide bushings and tungsten bushings and well........................this is what happens. The snowball effect. If we were still shooting with 250 gr. SST's with 42 gr. of 4759 or 5744, it would have just been a ho-hum hunting board using smokeless powder?
It used to be if you were on the road and needed to make a phone call, you would have to find a phone booth and hope you had the change to make the call?....................Now you whip out your Galaxy S5 when your shopping and take a picture of an item........send/text/e-mail it to your wife and say...........Honey? Is this what you meant?? Things continually improve.
So, I guess will still keep on shooting and posting till the moderators get too much heat and tell me to stop?
Richard

[Deleted]

Richard and I joined the board about the same time and in that time things have changed greatly, back then it was all about the Savage and how to make it run. plenty of us had problems with the stock Savages and that's why we came here. there were answers to questions that you simply couldn't find anywhere else, not Savage arms, Wakeman or anyone else.

we have learned much in a short time but I think there is still a lot out there to uncover in the SML world that we have only scratched the surface on. think of this place as a smokeless "think tank" of sorts. one comes up with an idea and another tweaks it or puts it in use. one person couldn't possibly do it all on his own. there are some pretty sharp guys on this board and they don't care to share their ideas with the brothers.

we butt heads from time to time but that's to be expected. yes the pee pee contests get a little old sometimes but that's just part of it. anyone grow up with brothers?
ever have a good ole knock down drag out? but you are still brothers when the dust clears right?

I have made some very good friends in the last 7 years on this board, guys from all parts of the country and all walks of life, some really stand up guys, the kind you would want standing beside you if things really went sour. hopefully some of these guys feel the same way about me, you know who you are..

Have we pushed the avj joe SML guy to the back of the pack? I hope not, I can see where some might feel that way but I really don't think that's the intention of the participants of the threads that seem to dominate now days.

As others have said, I think this thread will help get things back on track.

One thing for sure, there has been more going on this summer than any since I have been around and that's a good thing. activity will only increase in the coming months and I look forward to all the kill pics and stories that go with them..
have a good week Gents, may God bless you all...

[Deleted]

I think Bill makes a good point about the activity this summer. It has been extremely high, and one sided. Most of the hunters have slipped into other activities and only the guys with peaked SML interests are shooting and building in the off months. These guys are never gonna settle for good enough, there always has to be something more. I believe soon the weather will chill and the hair will start to fly and we will be seeing some more average hunting loads and scenarios coming to the front page of the board. I know I have so many ideas running through my head that I could miss hunting season if I don't rein myself in. The fact that there are still unknowns to this sport brings me back to Doug's, many, many times a day.

[Deleted]

Aug 24, 2014 19:41:26 GMT -5 @hillbill said:

Richard and I joined the board about the same time and in that time things have changed greatly, back then it was all about the Savage and how to make it run. plenty of us had problems with the stock Savages and that's why we came here. there were answers to questions that you simply couldn't find anywhere else, not Savage arms, Wakeman or anyone else.

we have learned much in a short time but I think there is still a lot out there to uncover in the SML world that we have only scratched the surface on. think of this place as a smokeless "think tank" of sorts. one comes up with an idea and another tweaks it or puts it in use. one person couldn't possibly do it all on his own. there are some pretty sharp guys on this board and they don't care to share their ideas with the brothers.

we butt heads from time to time but that's to be expected. yes the pee pee contests get a little old sometimes but that's just part of it. anyone grow up with brothers?
ever have a good ole knock down drag out? but you are still brothers when the dust clears right?

I have made some very good friends in the last 7 years on this board, guys from all parts of the country and all walks of life, some really stand up guys, the kind you would want standing beside you if things really went sour. hopefully some of these guys feel the same way about me, you know who you are..

Have we pushed the avj joe SML guy to the back of the pack? I hope not, I can see where some might feel that way but I really don't think that's the intention of the participants of the threads that seem to dominate now days.

As others have said, I think this thread will help get things back on track.

One thing for sure, there has been more going on this summer than any since I have been around and that's a good thing. activity will only increase in the coming months and I look forward to all the kill pics and stories that go with them..
have a good week Gents, may God bless you all...

Amen to that and what many of the others have stated. I'm glad this thread didn't go totally South and hopefully it has helped in some way or another,

[hankinsrfls]

Guys... When talking in a text message it is kinda hard sometimes to get the persons emotions in the text. When I first came here I was offended by some of the post that were directed at me, but over time I learned how to receive such post and most of them were meant as kind, cut up jokes. However sometimes we don't know when someone is cutting up and when they are not when all we have to go by is their texting. So after I talked to several of these guys on the phone over the last several months I learned what kind of personality they had and it was much easier to figure out their intentions in their messages. Now I have meat about 15 brothers from this board and they have each met 15. So we have formed kinda a different bond to where we can kid around a little more and neither one will get their feelings hurt. I think these 15 or so guys could banter each other pretty hard on here and none of us would take offence to it, because we know now what kind of person each and every one is. However. Some of the others that did not get to meet these guys might read the text and think who are these guys. Myself, I have a straight up personality and sometimes I might say things to boldly and if you don't know me then you may get the wrong Idea of the text. Lately I had several friendly stabs and I responded with a friendly stab back,, Like you better bring your lunch, some of you might have looked at this as if we were arguing, but its all in good clean fun. I have never seen anyone stoop to name calling or challenging someone to a boxing match. I sometimes respond to post in a humorous form, some here don't like that, but we all have our own way of speaking and if you were here in person you would probably not get offended. So I am sorry if my post come across to strongly sometimes.

Richard, You said "What bothers me? Is people who put their two cents in on a subject and have never once shown that they had any experience with the subject. They simply pick up information from other knowledgeable people and then present it as "in my experience...

I can't agree with you more on this one. No examples are needed, but all this free advise is no good if its incorrect advise. There is a ton of knowledge on this board and we all have our strong points, You will never hear me give advise on a Remington ML or a Savage ML because I have never build anything on those actions, I only build on center fire actions., but if it's bedding a stock or making a muzzle brake I will probably offer my advise.

All of us guys here are great guys I would like to think but when we start out on the wrong foot it is sometimes very hard to back up and get that first step over.

I was told that if my greatest rival was at the shoot we would have went home as friends too.

We all have a place to be on this board and we all have a different need for the SML, so if we all keep our heads together we will all find the answers to our needs.

To the moderators,,, It seems from reading this thread, and the post from members of long time, that the board has strayed from what was the norm in days past. The original Savage and Remington smokeless ML's are Well they are not the same as they were in days past. Members have taken them way past the point anyone would have ever thought possible when they were introduced. As a suggestion and I have seen this somewhere before, Maybe a new sub menu could be started and call it something besides Savage/Smokeless muzzleloading. If so many members don't like the high performance muzzleloading post maybe a new place to put them will help get the Savage board back to where it once was. Personally I like all the post in one place, its much easier to read them all, and I do read them all, but if a separate board will help, then maybe it could be looked into. Jeff.

[pposey]

Aug 22, 2014 0:49:26 GMT -5 esshup said:

How many here now remember what a "kitchen sink" load was?

I always called those yard sale loads,,,, cause after you shot stuff was all over the yard,,,

And back then they were the pushing the limit loads,,, Today I'm perfectly happy with my converted 45/70 and moderate loads,, and I suggest that path to anybody looking for a good hunting SML,,,,

you guys that are pushing the limits now are doing the same thing we did with "kitchen sink" loads and are probably safer in doing it,,, so have at it.

[wilmsmeyer]

Earnhardt,

There is NO NEED to apologize for anything. There is also no denying that the content, the players, guns, loads, etc have changed ALOT in the last 10 years or so here.

Someone said that I do not post as much anymore, and they were right. But that's MY own fault/issue...not anyone else's. When I can contribute, I do. When I have something I want to post about, I do. What I have found is that the membership has become so knowledgeable and so diverse, that a question I could help answer gets answered in minutes by someone else that says the same thing I would have said. I am not the type of person to say "ditto's" to a post just for the sake of chiming in.

Doug's for me is way more about all the forums not just smokeless. The modern rifle forum, the recipes and of course the back porch to name a few

Everybody here has to remember that the "original" few dozen guys that posted a lot of information here were around at the beginning. During this time there were no .45's, there were no conversions, there were no barrel makers, there were no Match Hunter bullets. It was guys trying to make a stock gun shoot book loads so they could kill deer. Basically, that's it. Addressing ignition problems, addressing stuck vet liners and addressing scope mount issues. All of that morphed over time. Why wouldn't it???

RB came along with incredible wisdom and the ability to explain it. 45's started being discussed. Sabotless started being tried and ironed out. Edge made crazy PVC sabots that only he could use...not everyone can use a precision CNC at their job and make sabots on coffee break. Things happen and evolve.

Today, all this wild, new, creative and enthusiastic work is being done. DON'T apologize for it. Keep doing it. Did we stop designing cars after the Ford Model T? Did we stop looking for a better ML after the Knight Disc rifle? Did we stop looking for a more powerful revolver after the .44 Mag?

For those that want to go back to the old days, it ain't happening. Just like the traditionalist round ballers that scoff at smokeless. Time doesn't stand still and neither does the entraprenurial spirit of the gifted Americans.

I haven't seen many, if any, inappropriate information lately. Haven't anyone being a problem to anyone else. Keep it that way and keep your hobbies alive. One thing I think we've gotten away with is the habit of posting loads that have been pressure tested. We used to warn people all the time about their Hot Rod loads. Being in uncharted territory many time, it's easy for a guy to go from never using an ML, to a fancy .45 conversion shooting sabotless. All he really has is what he reads here and doesn't always come from the same back round and evolution many of us has. Be careful posting some of these loads and be careful putting "just anything" out there for the masses. We do not need anyone hurt or more stories on blow ups.

For the time being, I have gotten everything I've needed from this forum to be where I want to be. And I am here for anyone that has a question. Keep in mind that ML's were my primary hunting rifle for over 10 years because center fire rifles were not allowed. Now they are!! My ML is in service one weekend a year!!! My interests in areas where I want to learn, or areas where I am spending time are just not in smokeless as much as it used to be. IT'S NOT because I am disappointed in the direction this forum has taken. It's a natural, logical direction that stems from natural creativity.

[homebrook]

GOT ONE THING TO SAY
In the short time I have been a member of this forum I have learned more about shooting, muzzleloading,
smokeless, bullets and so on it would have taken me forever. I got it right here giving and learning thats what it is all about Lets keep it going

[Richard]

Dave W..............
Re: your highlighted sentences .............
What bothers me? Is people who put their two cents in on a subject and have never once shown that they had any experience with the subject. They simply pick up information from other knowledgeable people and then present it as "in my experience...bla, bla "
Dave..............this had NOTHING, I mean NOTHING whatsoever to do with you! Your name never even came to mind with that statement. I will give you a hint as to the two people I was referring to, in particular: The first one uses a name that starts with "E" and is followed by about 12 other letters (Luke knows who I am talking about) He just out of no where shows up occasionally to give his "expert" opinions. The second one has a "handle" that starts with a "G" and if followed by eight more letters.........Have not seen hide nor hair of him in probably 6 to 8 months? Got an opinion about every gun and load but I NEVER once saw him post a target or even give information on loads and targets he shot.
I am innocent! believe me Dave.

As to the first link Dave.............what is the problem? I gave you credit?
"You are in the right ballpark Curt. As Dave indicated, 5 gr and up to 8 gr. is more than enough."
The reason I started using Clays instead of your Red Dot was..........I had no RD on hand but did have 8 lbs. of Clays which was in the same burn rate as RD.

My mention of your name was in the context of my "alleged" bragging where you had on one or two occasions made some snide remark as to "there goes Richard" or something to that effect. Sometimes you have to mention your back ground since new shooters come on the forum all the time and don't know anything about you. In fact, when I am answering people about various questions or about building a gun via PM, I give them a link to 3,000 word blog I did for the Accurate Shooter which goes into my abilities. That way they have a better idea of who I am and what I am capable of producing. In case you might like to read it?.............http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek050.html And your darn straight I am proud of it!
In your second link I never said you did not shoot Red Dot? In fact, I picked up the idea from you. As I indicated above, I happen to have Clays on hand. And I have always mentioned using Clays or RD in the same context?
As far as those two links at the bottom of your post....................whats the significance?
Let me ask you this? Who posts more information on duplex loads on the board? The answer is no one other than me? Is that bragging? You bet it is. And it is the truth. If I did not post loads on the board every week, there would be very little information disseminated to old or new shooters? Yes, Earnhardt and Deadeye do post some of their high performace loads and or targets but not a heck of a lot more than that? People come on here, Hillbill or someone builds them a gun, the pictures come on the forum, everyone complements the shooter on his gun and the great work the builder did. They then take it to the range and fire a target or two with decent groups and then you rarely see or hear from them again? No, not all but most. I have been on here for seven years showing the good groups and the bad groups........and believe me, its not the shooter........its the loads, the bullets, the fit of the bullet, the sabot whatever. I put it on to show people what different things cause inaccuracy. If you want to break bad on me for that, so be it. But know, I was not pointing you out for anything other then the alleged "bragging thing"
I would hope you are OK with with my explanation!
Richard

[hunter]

Come on guy's, Let's all of us call a truce. I think that was the intention of the post.
Every once in a while someone posts something that reads different than it was meant,
or we just plain take it wrong. Then we get calling each other out on it.
This looks like someone told someone else what someone else was thinking when a post was made.
Maybe we ought to pm the poster and try to get to the bottom of a statement before we just fire
back with more ill remarks.

[rambler]

Here we go, just sing this little diddy and things will be just fine :

"Why Can't We Be Friends"


Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I seen you around for a long long time, ya
I really remembered you when you drink my wine

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I seen you walkin' down in Chinatown
I called you but you could not look around

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I bring my money to the welfare line
I see you standing in it every time

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

The color of your skin don't matter to me
As long as we can live in harmony

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I'd kinda like to be the President
So I can show you how your money's spent

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

Sometimes I don't speak right
But yet I know what I'm talking about

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I know you're workin' for the CIA
They wouldn't have you in the Ma-fi-a

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends...

[wilmsmeyer]

I personally do not see any benefit to anyone to argue in the open. If someone has a beef with someone else, PM them. Sort it out, talk it out and be done with it. You will probably end up being friends in the end.

I think that when someone makes a remark that gets someone irritated, the first instinct is to go on defense...IN PUBLIC and get back at the other person...IN PUBLIC.

Guys, man up and argue in PM's. Know one is benefiting from the personal jabs.

This forum is about smokeless ML's. This thread is going way above and beyond what people come here for.

I do not want to move this. I don't want to "moderate" this.

Now and then a thread like this happens. People put me and others in the position of having to "moderate". Sometimes the thread goes too long. This one is getting there.

[edge]

Aug 24, 2014 15:04:17 GMT -5 Richard said:

Well I guess I should ad my $0.02 since I have been an active member on this board since 2007. I have been in my share of verbal battles with a number of members and the BOSS-------------The Goat Man, Edge. 

Not "The Boss"...just your boss 

Just kidding, Richard and I give each other digs all in good humor.
yes we have had, and still do disagree on some ML things, but I certainly can't argue with his trigger pulling especially since mine is akin to trigger yanking

Lighten up everyone and take what is written with a grain of salt, nobody has all the answers, heck we don't even know all the questions yet!

edge.

[12ptdroptine]

Yeah what edge said...we dont even know the questions yet. I have 2 donor 700... one blue and 1 new ss....feaid to fo forward with them...by the time I get rolling with them...they might be obsolete

[Dave W]

Sorry for the rant Richard, etal.
Thought I was the focus of your entire post because I use that "in my experience" line quite often , including just recently. Thought you were saying I never duplexed with the fast boosters and took offense.

Yes, I will agree with you. You and TG have done more to advance duplex into the mainstream than anyone else! Between your frequent posts and his tracing, duplex is more widely used now than ever before. There was always some of us shooting duplex, but it was never embraced to the extent it is now.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[edge]

Only disagreement, is duplex goes to RBinAR, RIP, if it were not for his expertise and knowledge the 50 would be the standard IMO!

edge.

[Dave W]

Aug 26, 2014 17:31:57 GMT -5 edge said:

Only disagreement, is duplex goes to RBinAR, RIP, if it were not for his expertise and knowledge the 50 would be the standard IMO!

edge.

No disagreement there, all of us duplex shooters are disciples Of RB, whether the new guys realize it or not. I was introduced, guided, and tutored, via courtesy of yourself, RB, SW, SS, and Danno, probably more, but you five stick out in my mind. All I meant was, even with RB's old 50 duplex trace work, and his posts educating us on its benefits, it just never seemed to achieve the foothold it has currently.

[Jon]

Edge well put RB is very missed in my eyes at least. I'm glad to see you doing more posting You were always at the top of the list.

[Richard]

I am cool! Peace!
Richard

[dannoboone]

Aug 26, 2014 17:31:57 GMT -5 edge said:

Only disagreement, is duplex goes to RBinAR, RIP, if it were not for his expertise and knowledge the 50 would be the standard IMO!
edge.

+1

Dear God in heaven, how I miss him.

[deadeye]

G********_- I could swear I ate some of his shrimp @ ky/* incognito

he is the real deal & thx for the bringing/much appreciated!

[Deleted]

G who? yes he can cook some shrimp for sure!

yes everyone much appreciated the shrimp ,dont see em much up our way...

Dang, this is the longest thread I have seen in a while, who started this anyway?