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Post by lwh723 on Aug 18, 2014 19:11:38 GMT -5
Just a heads up guys that Swinglock is going to come out with a new sizing die that has inserts which will allow alternating between smooth and full-form sizing. The inserts will be interchangeable between different guns of the same caliber, but not guns of different caliber. For you guys with multiple guns, this will be a great deal.
And then as an added bonus, I'm going to start stocking the die!
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Post by Richard on Aug 18, 2014 20:52:03 GMT -5
OK, so let me ask......................? Is Tom Post "copying Hank's die?" or vice-versa?
Richard
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Post by Alabama on Aug 18, 2014 21:18:32 GMT -5
Richard. I wondered the same thing when I saw this post.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 18, 2014 21:24:13 GMT -5
Well it must be a similar copy of mine. As I've been shipping mint to customers now for several months, but copy's are good, keeps is on our toes.. We all copied the smokeless rifle from some where... Jeff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 21:25:48 GMT -5
I have seen both and used many of Toms and they are very different in appearance and somewhat different on the inside as well. I watched Jeffs in use but didn't use it myself so I cant comment on how the two compare in actual use..
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Post by lwh723 on Aug 18, 2014 21:29:15 GMT -5
As far as I know, only one of them has a patent. Why don't you show us some more pictures of your die Hankins? We all know what a Swinglock die looks like.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 18, 2014 21:32:45 GMT -5
I don't waist a bunch of money on patents. If I make something good and someone else wants to build it too then that's ok with me. I love this sport and don't want to hold anyone back trying to Pantent something as simple as a bullet sizer.. There is a 100 ways you could make it and it will all do the same job.. Kyle posted some pretty good pictures of the die.. Can't get much better than that unless you buy one yourself... Jeff.
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Post by hammer on Aug 18, 2014 21:47:18 GMT -5
Jeff, I totally agree with you and am glad you feel that way about your stuff, because it benefits everyone and helps us to keep improving our guns.
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Post by hammer on Aug 18, 2014 22:01:57 GMT -5
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Post by lwh723 on Aug 18, 2014 22:23:24 GMT -5
Great... explain to me how I can tell how it's adjusted from the one side view picture? |
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Post by hammer on Aug 18, 2014 22:34:02 GMT -5
There are three set screws on the top of the die (two can be seen in the picture) Jeff explained to me that you loosen them then rotate the hex nut the desired amount and re tighten the set screws.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 18, 2014 22:34:51 GMT -5
Great... explain to me how I can tell how it's adjusted from the one side view picture? Seriously,,, you build rifles and can't look at that picture and figure it out... Mechanically inclined are ya? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 22:45:02 GMT -5
Just going to throw this in the mix ....AIRBORNEIKE, Mike Eisenhower made the first one and posted how to make a multi gun, smooth and full form capable die over a year ago, and I just happen to be lucky enough to have it in my possession,Thanks again Mike....Imo Mike made the first one and tried to teach others how to make one.....
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 18, 2014 23:09:33 GMT -5
And I saw it at my shoot and was very impressed with the workmanship he showed in his product. Very nice work and all from stainless steel.. Jeff.
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Post by airborneike on Aug 18, 2014 23:18:10 GMT -5
SML- Allen
Thanks for the "shout-out" Allen. My sizing dies are an evolving animal and the ones I make now are more refined than the ones in the post but still use the same principles. I agree with Jeff in that patents are indeed expensive and IMHO no one is going to get wealthy making bullet sizing dies.
One of the best reasons we all keep coming back to this board is the free sharing of ideas and techniques.
All the best,
Mike
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 3:36:45 GMT -5
Just a heads up guys that Swinglock is going to come out with a new sizing die that has inserts which will allow alternating between smooth and full-form sizing. The inserts will be interchangeable between different guns of the same caliber, but not guns of different caliber. For you guys with multiple guns, this will be a great deal. And then as an added bonus, I'm going to start stocking the die! Any idea on the price and release date yet? Thanks, Guy |
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Post by swinglock on Aug 20, 2014 11:03:55 GMT -5
OK, the comments in this thread come as no surprise to me and I knew they would start as soon as the Swing-Lock " ADJUSTABLE " bullet sizing die was revealed and started coming into use. Isn't it something how soon after a new concept of great value is revealed and put to use that there will always be those who suddenly come out and say how simple it is and that there are hundreds of different ways to do it. Here, see the one I made or am making! Fact of the matter is, an adjustable bullet sizing die could have been made two or three hundred years ago and perhaps it was but just somehow fell through the cracks. It really does not require any exotic materials and it could have been made long ago but US patent searches done back in 2009 showed no such existing " ADJUSTABLE " inventions. Patents have been acquired since then. Patents aren't obtained just to be able to say I have one. They are acquired because they help to legitimize what Swing-Lock does and they tell everyone that the inventions are useful and give formal documentation of importance and originality. Also if you go back on this board to around 2009 / 2010 you will find posts and comments regarding Swing-Lock's new " adjustable " bullet sizing die before the die was actually made available to customers. The comments you will find are not those saying...Oh I know someone else who is doing that! In fact they are comments asking " How does it work "! Granted the die is very simple but no one back then had ever seen or used an " adjustable " bullet sizing die. Everyone back then was struggling with every different form of solid non-adjustable die and technique to try and make shooting sabotless bullets practical. You won't find anyone saying oh that's easy and there are hundreds of different ways to do it! The Swing-Lock adjustable die was actually invented in 2008 and work towards patenting started in 2009. Also if you find an honest and reputable patent attorney it isn't really that costly to obtain a US utility patent. None of Swing-Locks cost even near $3000 but I will sat that I did most of my own drawings. Doing your own drawings will save a lot of money. If you want to go international with your patents then, you will pay big bucks.
In addition, I would also comment that the Swing-Lock Adjustable bullet sizing die is not just a pidley bullet sizing die and I knew during invention and observing how well it worked that it was an extremely important advancement towards making sabotless muzzle loading practical. It is also the key invention which allowed full form adjustable sizing of any modern high BC rifle bullets that we use today in our smaller caliber muzzleloading rifles. Without the Swing-Lock " ADUSTABLE " Full Form bullet sizing die, forget about making the .416, 6.5mm, .308 or any of the smaller caliber rifles because I know from lots of experience...those rifles are just plain nearly, if not impossible to get to shoot well with smooth sized bullets. That is especially true when considering the faster twist rifling. In my testing it has become more apparent that if twist rate is too fast, smooth bullets start to have problems engaging and accuracy goes away.
Regarding interchangeable inserts to convert the die from smooth to full form or vice-versa, there is nothing new to that idea and I will say that guessing at least a year ago Hillbill sent me a message asking why not make interchangeable inserts for your die? I told him it was considered and is a good idea but I did not want to do it because it would likely cause functional problems. I will admit that since Hankins is offering his die with that capability I did look at the Swing-Lock die design more closely and some very simple geometry changes were made which proved very workable and will potentially save customers considerable money by not having to purchase an extra complete new die. I am still upgrading tooling and doing time studies to determine what new pricing will be. It might be another week. Hankins, Thanks for the motivation. Your rifles look very nice!
Tom
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Post by cowhunter on Aug 20, 2014 11:54:14 GMT -5
Good description of the good in patents Tom. Jeff's attitude has to be commended too. Tom, I almost sent you a line apologizing for not taking my Krieger barreled Swing Lock to Jeff's shoot. It has amazing accuracy at 300 yards so if I could have gotten a hired gun to claim it was not mine it might have won something. I've talked at length with both Tom and Jeff and they are about the most talented and honest guys I ever imagined existing. The other makers on this Board are of a type (Rossman40 for example) that it would be pure pleasure to meet them. The Swinglock dies (I have 4) work perfectly and Tom is to be commended for acknowledging that Jeff helped motivate him. Can you believe Jeff shot 125 grains of H4350?
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Post by rangeball on Aug 20, 2014 12:04:56 GMT -5
Tom, I assume prior FF dies can not be retrofited to also allow SS forming?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 12:20:24 GMT -5
Without the Swing-Lock " ADUSTABLE " Full Form bullet sizing die, forget about making the .416, 6.5mm, .308 or any of the smaller caliber rifles because I know from lots of experience...those rifles are just plain nearly, if not impossible to get to shoot well with smooth sized bullets. That is especially true when considering the faster twist rifling. In my testing it has become more apparent that if twist rate is too fast, smooth bullets start to have problems engaging and accuracy goes away. Tom I ABSOLUTELY agree with you Tom....your technology and dies have gotten the ml world out of the Plastic sabots that everyone knew was the weak link,I HIGHLY respect All that you have done and your rifles are in their own class by themselves, Just like the Hankins,are of their own.....There are great minds at work here and that's why I keep coming back to see whats new DAILY...Because you never know what someone has come up with now....It's All Good Guys......
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Post by lwh723 on Aug 20, 2014 12:53:53 GMT -5
Thanks for adding to the thread Tom. My description in the starting post of a "new" Swinglock die could have been better worded as an "updated" Swinglock die.
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Post by rickyb on Aug 20, 2014 13:41:13 GMT -5
Tom, I assume prior FF dies can not be retrofited to also allow SS forming? Tom this is likely the same question but If I have a smooth sizing die. Can it be retrofitted to accept a full form insert or will it be that I would have to buy the new or improved sizing die that Luke is talking about carrying? Thanks Rick |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 13:42:14 GMT -5
I'm glad to see Tom do the interchangeable insert, I suspected it would happen sooner or later.
I can honestly say after using many of Toms dies that I would have been in the dark with full size bullets and many others would be in the same boat Out of the Stone Age and into the realm of full form bullets...... Thank you sir
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Post by Dave W on Aug 20, 2014 13:45:11 GMT -5
Tom is the man! Not so long ago, the .45 converts were praising the 40 cal bullets in sabots, sabotless was too much of a pain. Tom changed all that!!!
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Post by rickyb on Aug 20, 2014 13:51:01 GMT -5
Tom, I assume prior FF dies can not be retrofited to also allow SS forming? Tom this is likely the same question but If I have a smooth sizing die. Can it be retrofitted to accept a full form insert or will it be that I would have to buy the new or improved sizing die that Luke is talking about carrying? Thanks Rick |
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Post by rickyb on Aug 20, 2014 14:07:09 GMT -5
Tom, I assume prior FF dies can not be retrofited to also allow SS forming? Tom this is likely the same question but If I have a smooth sizing die. Can it be retrofitted to accept a full form insert or will it be that I would have to buy the new or improved sizing die that Luke is talking about carrying? Thanks Rick |
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Post by wirtbowhunter on Aug 20, 2014 16:32:38 GMT -5
If anyone is going to be buying one of the 2-in-1 dies, I would be interested in your old outdated smooth swinglock 45 die. Send me a PM if someone has one for sale.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Aug 20, 2014 20:55:06 GMT -5
x2 after Wirtbowhunter! Anyone interested in selling their smooth I would also be interested!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 23:53:05 GMT -5
If anyone is going to be buying one of the 2-in-1 dies, I would be interested in your old outdated smooth swinglock 45 die. Send me a PM if someone has one for sale. I know your trying to save a buck but the 2 in one that's being offered by Luke will size bullets from .451-.458....and your set.... |
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Post by swinglock on Aug 21, 2014 6:52:11 GMT -5
Thanks to all for your comments and compliments.
Concerning the questions regarding conversion of the old revision die to the new revision; sorry but no, that is not a practical option as there are significant dimensional and geometric differences to the new inserts and compression ring.
Also, all should be advised that graduation value of the new die has increased from .00013 In. to .0005 In. which is the calculated change in the die compression diameter per graduation. What that means is the new die moves / adjusts faster than the old version and it is not unlikely that the final adjustment will fall somewhere between graduation marks. In testing the new version, I did not find the increase in speed to be a real problem and in fact some shooters might like it better.
Another thing to be aware of is that when an insert is changed it should not be expected that the location of the zero mark as related to the graduation marks will be in the same location. It likely won't be but the grad marks are for reference only any ways so it should not be a great concern. As before, you just do the same thing and make a note of zero grad location for each different bullet as required.
Tom
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