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Post by encore50a on Aug 5, 2014 8:30:55 GMT -5
Well you guys cook up the crow and I'll eat it. I have no problem admitting that I learned something new, that I originally thought different of.
I have received a good education why the Ultimate Firearm rifle and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, ARE NOT DESIGNED to shoot BH209. Also why BH should NOT be shot from them. Its not because the rifle won't shoot or handle BH, its the actual design of the ignition system, nipple design and brass cases used and the properties of BH.
I had shot BH from the Ultimate with no problems and excellent long rang accuracy. Although when shooting heavy charges of 135grs volume, the rifle shot better groups when swabbed every 3rd shot or so. During my last shooting session, I suddenly started getting considerable blowback. A lot of blowback! Something that had NEVER happened previously. My cases were terrible dirty. I cleaned the rifle barrel, then had my work cut out cleaning the chamber and action. When I checked out the nipple, it was clearly gas cut, BAD.
I took photos of the cases and shipped them off within an email to Ken Johnston, who promptly called me. Yesterday I met with Ken at his home and we proceeded to make what he thought would be a 30 minute replacement. Now I wasn't scolded but, I was educated why I shouldn't shoot BH from the Ultimate. I watched Ken remove the barrel, then attempt to remove the breech plug. It became very evident to me it wasn't going to happen. Try as Ken did, that breech plug was not going to be removed normally. The barrel then went into the lathe and it was drilled. After it was drilled, the first easy-out wouldn't remove the remaining plug threads so a larger easy-out was used. As I watched the process I fully expected to ante up for a new barrel. Finally the remaining plug was removed.
The barrel was cleaned and thoroughly inspected, then the new breech plug was installed. The rifle was reassembled, scope mounted and then handed to me while I was being told, "In the condition you first received it." As stated before, I wasn't scolded, I was educated why BH should not be used in the rifle, or the Remington Ultimate. Ken explained that he's replaced just three breech plugs prior to mine and EVERY ONE was because BH209 was shot from them. He told me that the replacement of a breech plug is extremely uncommon for him. It appears that any leak of gas when using BH in the UF or RU ignition systems, will immediately cut that nipple. Another reason that the brass have a life span of 3 to 4 primes.
There's no doubt going to be some negative feedback on this but, I'll try to put it this way........ If the person who developed and designed the ignition system, the IDENTICAL system used in both the UF rifle and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, states DO NOT use BH209 in that ignition system and, Remington itself is promoting shooting only pellets, there's a reason.......... |
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Post by edge on Aug 5, 2014 9:02:36 GMT -5
If you check out the Savage ML pages you can buy a carbide bushing that can probably be installed in your BP.
They stand up to hundreds of smokeless loads and would probably last forever with BH.
edge.
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Post by encore50a on Aug 5, 2014 9:43:25 GMT -5
If you check out the Savage ML pages you can buy a carbide bushing that can probably be installed in your BP. They stand up to hundreds of smokeless loads and would probably last forever with BH. edge. 
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Post by GMB54-120 on Aug 5, 2014 10:19:25 GMT -5
Well, that might be a huge problem for many potential buyers and i respect you for bringing it to a topic. I doubt some reviewers would ever post those results after endorsing the use of BH209.
Several of us have used BH209 in our non smokers with good results. Ive used it in my Sav/Pac 45 and my ULA with good results. I wonder how well it works in the Rems Cecil at PR converts.
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Post by edge on Aug 5, 2014 11:01:45 GMT -5
How do you install the BP, is that center section a hex?
It does not appear that there is enough "meat" in that BP for a regular bushing, but I have used ceramic tubes 1/16 in diameter with a 1/32 hole.
edge.
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Post by encore50a on Aug 5, 2014 14:50:13 GMT -5
How do you install the BP, is that center section a hex? It does not appear that there is enough "meat" in that BP for a regular bushing, but I have used ceramic tubes 1/16 in diameter with a 1/32 hole. edge. Yes, the center is hexed. |
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Post by encore50a on Aug 5, 2014 15:11:37 GMT -5
Well, that might be a huge problem for many potential buyers and i respect you for bringing it to a topic. I doubt some reviewers would ever post those results after endorsing the use of BH209.
Several of us have used BH209 in our non smokers with good results. Ive used it in my Sav/Pac 45 and my ULA with good results. I wonder how well it works in the Rems Cecil at PR converts. I tried to discuss the issue with one of them, but some just will not listen to those with more "hands on" experience. You can tell when someone reviewing a product is receiving compensation of some kind or another. My dad, long time gone now (R.I.P.) had and explanation for people like that. He said you could put a pile of coal in one of the person's hands and a pile of $ in the other. If that person made up his mind that the $ was coal, you can't change their mind if you rubbed their face in it. I met one of them......
What I do know for sure is, the UF rifle and the RU ignition system was designed with a purpose. If the rifles owner stays with the recommendations by those who designed and created the rifles and ignition, you'll be pretty happy. You start wavering from the recommendations and problems can arise.
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Post by hawghunter on Aug 5, 2014 17:33:33 GMT -5
What was the round count at the time you noticed there was a problem beginning to arise?
I'm asking because my hunting partner has switched to Blackhorn 209 while shooting his carbon fiber barreled Ultimate.
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Post by encore50a on Aug 5, 2014 18:08:55 GMT -5
What was the round count at the time you noticed there was a problem beginning to arise? I'm asking because my hunting partner has switched to Blackhorn 209 while shooting his carbon fiber barreled Ultimate. I have about 300 rounds through the rifle total. I need to start keeping better records instead of targets.... However I started shooting 3-7M pellets and did so for quite a few rounds before switching/swapping. I'm going out on a limb here, but my best guess is 60 rounds of BH209. Its my recommendation and a HIGH RECOMMENDATION, that your friend NOT shoot BH209 from his rifle. However that's entirely up to him. If he wants to talk, you can set up a phone conversation and I'll be happy to tell him what I know or answer his questions.
I was trying to save money, getting more shots from BH than shooting 3 - T7M pellets, as I shoot all the time. I think if I want to start really tweaking loads, the proper way would be to start with T7 loose. I need to shoot T7M from it now that I have the Timney installed. I hated the XMark Pro.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Aug 5, 2014 21:19:04 GMT -5
If you check out the Savage ML pages you can buy a carbide bushing that can probably be installed in your BP. They stand up to hundreds of smokeless loads and would probably last forever with BH. edge.
That breech plug and priming system is designed completely backwards. They are trying to creat a seal by compressing a soft metal (brass) against a hard metal (steel) and expect it to not give under pressure. Once it gives any at all you will have gas cutting. Who went to college to learn engineering? It's simple, if the plug was brass and the primer holders were steel it would seal, but then the plug would be to soft to withstand the breech pressures so back to the drawing board... And the primer holders only last 3 or 4 shots.. That's got to get expensive pretty quick if you shoot a bunch. Sorry if I upset anyone but that's the way I see it... |
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Post by hawghunter on Aug 5, 2014 21:32:18 GMT -5
Thanks you the response. I will let him know he is risking a problem. He doesn't shoot this Ultimate that much so I'm sure his round count is not that high.
His farm is near Long Rapids not far off Leer road.
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Post by encore50a on Aug 6, 2014 11:41:48 GMT -5
Thanks you the response. I will let him know he is risking a problem. He doesn't shoot this Ultimate that much so I'm sure his round count is not that high. His farm is near Long Rapids not far off Leer road. He isn't very far from me then. |
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Post by Page Three on Aug 6, 2014 12:03:41 GMT -5
just watched randy wakeman in a video stating the RU is designed to handle up to 150gr of BH. He was shooting 95-100 of it by weight in his videos. I realize you are speaking from a practical perspective and doing so very respectfully. Just curious why Remington would go down that road if it was going to cause them so many headaches in the short run.
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Post by hunter on Aug 6, 2014 13:53:36 GMT -5
Maybe Remington dosen't have a clue
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Post by encore50a on Aug 6, 2014 13:57:48 GMT -5
just watched randy wakeman in a video stating the RU is designed to handle up to 150gr of BH. He was shooting 95-100 of it by weight in his videos. I realize you are speaking from a practical perspective and doing so very respectfully. Just curious why Remington would go down that road if it was going to cause them so many headaches in the short run. NOTE: That's RW saying it'll do it. NOT REMINGTON. I haven't seen a single promotion myself by Remington promoting the use of BH209. If its out there, someone please direct me to it.
I had a conversation on FB where he (RW) posted and I asked very legit questions, of which NONE of them were answered. Each one was skirted until he took the posts out of FB. That's perfectly alright, its his FB page. It was a polite conversation but, concerns and questions I asked just weren't answered so others could read the answers and understand. It was being touted as the "Best production rifle ever made". If you notice in any videos, you'll see all the shots are taken at just 100yds. Now the "best" is looked at in different ways by different people I guess. Its being advertised as a 300yd capable rifle. I don't want to see 100yd targets, which anyone who shoots a lot can easily match, I want to see what the rifle will do at 200yds and 300yds. However it appears that some are to busy with other items to take the time and shoot that range and provide targets.
I want to make it very clear, I'm not bashing Remington or the Remington Ultimate rifle. I hope it does very well for those who want something different, other than the normal production rifle. There are things that are "outside the box" required for most shooter's "normal". Readers and prospective buyers should know about those things before they purchase. I've seen way to many guys spend money that they really didn't have, for a new muzzleloader of "brand X" and be totally unhappy, sell rifle and be completely out of the muzzleloading sport.
For what the rifle and ignition system is designed for, if owners remain with that, they'll have a darn nice "different than normal" production rifle.
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Post by encore50a on Aug 6, 2014 13:58:37 GMT -5
Maybe Remington dosen't have a clue You mean about what RW is doing?
Directly from RW's site:
"Again, according to Remington, modern smokeless powder is prohibited on their new muzzleloader, so those who go that route on on their own. As far as I know, Blackhorn 209 has not yet been tested yet, by Remington, but that's what I'll be using for the most part as soon as my rifle shows up, ..." www.randywakeman.com/RemingtonModel700UltimateInlineMuzzleloaderPartTwo.htm
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Post by muznut on Aug 6, 2014 15:10:05 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to figure out Wakeman is pimping the Rem ultimate considering he lost the Savage 10ml gig. With that said he wont address any of the negatives on the Rem. Maybe now he will?
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Post by randywakeman on Aug 15, 2014 8:45:31 GMT -5
just watched randy wakeman in a video stating the RU is designed to handle up to 150gr of BH. He was shooting 95-100 of it by weight in his videos. I realize you are speaking from a practical perspective and doing so very respectfully. Just curious why Remington would go down that road if it was going to cause them so many headaches in the short run. Obviously they wouldn't. According to John Fink of Remington, the bulk of Remington's own testing to date has been with Blackhorn 209, three T7 "Magnum" pellets, and 4 T7 "50 grain" pellets. There is no indication of problems or headaches, nor would there be any basis for them. No, I've not stated what the Remington is "designed for." That's all up to Remington. I've not shot more than about 143 grains by volume of BH209 (100 grains actual weight), enough recoil to satisfy most with 300 grain sabots, but more manageable with 250-grain class bullets. Contrary to some gossip, the Remington breechplug is quite different (made from stronger 416 SS) than the old Michigan Ultimate breechplug, as is the primed brass. The entire breeching system was redesigned. |
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Post by Alabama on Aug 18, 2014 12:53:19 GMT -5
If there is money or free stuff involved they all shoot great!
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Post by randywakeman on Sept 5, 2014 4:25:12 GMT -5
Well you guys cook up the crow and I'll eat it. I have no problem admitting that I learned something new, that I originally thought different of.
I have received a good education why the Ultimate Firearm rifle and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, ARE NOT DESIGNED to shoot BH209. Also why BH should NOT be shot from them. Its not because the rifle won't shoot or handle BH, its the actual design of the ignition system, nipple design and brass cases used and the properties of BH.
The Michigan Ultimates use pistol brass for large rifle primers, an obvious problem never fixed by “Michigan Ultimate,” but now fixed by Remington. The soft, 300 series steel used in the Michigan Ultimate is another problem, eroding quickly with Triple Se7en pellets, never fixed in the “Michigan Ultimate,” but now quickly fixed by Remington. Remington does indeed recommend Blackhorn 209. As a matter of fact, Western Powders has had a Remington 700 Ultimate for several weeks and are going to publish “Rem. 700 Ultimate Only” loads. |
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Post by encore50a on Sept 5, 2014 10:56:15 GMT -5
I sure would be interested in seeing an advertisement from Remington, stating that their rifle is BH209 capable, especially since shooters are currently purchasing them without it advertised. Anyone seen the advertisement yet?
I personally don't know of any rifle named the "Michigan Ultimate".
Let's just face it, if it wasn't for the Ultimate Firearms rifle design and patent, Remington would still be scratching their ask and making average CF rifles. Their past results at creating muzzleloaders has been less than stellar. Even their modest claims of it being a 300yd rifle haven't been backed up yet, or at least not posted. The only targets I've seen shot with it, the groups at 100yds can be matched with a pre-packaged muzzleloader from Wal-Mart using PowerBelt bullets by a good shooter.
I haven't been a member of Doug's for a long time but, one thing I do know is there are a lot of guys here that are custom builders, gunsmiths and top of the line shooters. These guys KNOW what they're doing and how things work. Anyone who would even think different, is on another planet. PERIOD.
Lets ask those custom builders and gunsmiths about rather 416 SS will gas cut or not........... |
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Post by airborneike on Sept 5, 2014 22:19:31 GMT -5
Yes, 416 stainless steel will gas cut if subjected to the right circumstances such as a non fitted seal and then subjected to pressure.
Mike
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Post by randywakeman on Sept 7, 2014 11:51:10 GMT -5
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Post by encore50a on Sept 7, 2014 14:41:45 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to figure out Wakeman is pimping the Rem ultimate considering he lost the Savage 10ml gig. With that said he wont address any of the negatives on the Rem. Maybe now he will? Nope. He's still running around to all the different forums doing as you suggested.
I do know that some purchasers of the RU ended up pretty upset and felt deceived. They thought they were purchasing an Ultimate Firearms rifle and were not happy about it. I hope it works out for them.
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Post by sgellis on Dec 15, 2014 12:14:52 GMT -5
I'll be working up loads with Blackhorn 209 after Christmas with a production Remington version. I do not plan to run ignition cases to the point of gas leakage and failure, maybe a few times or so, provided they seal, but I'll certainly let you guys know if I see problems. Because of the Remington modification in design, I'd expect replacement plugs to be readily available before too long as servicing the Remington breech plug is an end user operation, no need to ship the gun to the factory. Not taking sides, but it's my dollar, and I don't see it as an issue in the Remington. Don't have a Johnston, but my bud shoots both the Johnston and the Remington, and I'm tending to lean toward his experience. He had the same problems as above with the Johnston, but not with the Remington. He shoots BH209 in the Remington, but no longer in the Johnston. He makes his Johnston run like a top and sing, but just not with the Blackhorn. He can make his Remington run well with the Blackhorn, so I'm intending to try the same. I'll post here if things go south. Best  |
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