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Post by rambler on Jul 28, 2014 19:59:34 GMT -5
Hello all:
I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on acceptable practices with 45/70 break open builds. Any day now I'm expecting my 45/70 H&R with a 45 cal 1:22 twist Douglas barrel in the mail from SMI. I've instructed them to leave the barrel at 30". I may cut it down and have a FF die made, just not sure at this point.
Some questions I've had, and if I've asked before please pardon the repetition, are sabotless loads safe for break open actions using some of the same powders and loads I've seen with the rempacs and the like?
Been reading the sabot/safety valve thread and it concerns me. I was really wanting to shoot sabotless with a 275 or 300 parker or even luke's 310.
Thanks for any advice and/or input
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Post by bestill on Jul 28, 2014 20:47:36 GMT -5
Imo id cut barrel down to 25-26" and id recommend using a reduced load around 2400 fps or max pressure of 30,000. Theres a list of pressure traces on board that should help out with load limits. A 2400 fps 275 bullet in a light break action build will definitely get your shoulders attention.
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Post by dannoboone on Jul 28, 2014 22:46:07 GMT -5
Agreed with bestill with all but cutting down the barrel. See how it shoots first. Yours just may also be a barrel in which the .451 Parkers will slide down without any sizing.
How far do you plan to shoot? Someone determined that the real world B.C. of the 275MH's is .350. (Think it was dirtball.) That's better than quite a few CF deer bullets, and on par with a lot of them. Even at 2400fps, the 275MH is still going to be a decent 300yd round if you do your part.
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Post by pposey on Jul 28, 2014 23:46:06 GMT -5
my converted 45/70 encore with a 26 inch barrel is shorter than a ml2 with a 21 inch barrel,,,
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Post by rambler on Jul 29, 2014 6:40:29 GMT -5
Agreed with bestill with all but cutting down the barrel. See how it shoots first. Yours just may also be a barrel in which the .451 Parkers will slide down without any sizing. How far do you plan to shoot? Someone determined that the real world B.C. of the 275MH's is .350. (Think it was dirtball.) That's better than quite a few CF deer bullets, and on par with a lot of them. Even at 2400fps, the 275MH is still going to be a decent 300yd round if you do your part. dannoboone:
It would be nice to get out to 400 yds but I'd be happy with 300. Actually I can't see any shot where I live and hunt being over 300 but I'd just like that extra option, if it's feasible. I agree with you on the barrel length, before I do any barrel cutting I'll see how it shoots. SMI is leaving the barrel just a little under 30". They told me 30" is the length they get it in at and then take a little off for the crown.
I wanted to get a nice rempac from one of the builders on this board but my finances, or lack thereof, got in the way this go 'round
Next year I should be able to go that route but for this coming deer season I have to settle on what I can afford.
I've got all the accessories, rockchucker press, rcbs scale and smooth die from Tom. Got an assortment of Parkers to try out and a few pounds of 4198 and 4759
Hopefully I can round up some slower powders, I'm told that's best for longer barrels and heavier bullets.
The reason I want to go sabotless is because I've done the blackpowder/sabot routine and had good results, just want something new, different, and long range.
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Post by seneca1 on Jul 29, 2014 8:40:00 GMT -5
Do you have the SB1 frame or the SB2. The SB1 is not as strong and is not recommended for heavy loads.
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Post by rambler on Jul 29, 2014 9:12:46 GMT -5
Do you have the SB1 frame or the SB2. The SB1 is not as strong and is not recommended for heavy loads. Very good point and I'm glad the frame is in fact an SB2. The gun was originally a 45/70 rifle and was converted to a black powder gun back in '98. But I still won't be shooting the magnum loads like I see some of the guys use. In all probability I may never go above 60 to 65 grains of IMR4198 or it's equivalent and will stay below 2500 fps. I don't need warp drive speed, just safety, accuracy and killing power for ethical harvesting.
Thanks for the heads up on the SB2 aspect, good call.
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Post by kralik4jr on Jul 29, 2014 9:31:57 GMT -5
I have four Encore conversions. Two with Pacnors, a 24.3" and a 26". Also have two with 24" Bergara's. All four guns where converted by Slufoot to a Savage bushing plug. The Pacnors I have been shooting Luke's 310 with 10/60 4759/H4198 for a couple years. Average around 2670+/- depending on temp. Shot sub MOA out past 500yds and two deer last year at 406 and 556yds. The Bergara's I shot some 250BE's with 60gr of H4198 a little and shot 1.5" at 200yds but use them mostly for my girls saboted. On my Pacnors I did a taper of 1" out 8" then down to.850 at the bore. I am very comfortable shooting that load out of my Pacnors. Going to start shooting IMR3031 when it shows up. A little less pressure at the same velocity. IMO, 26" is perfect for a gun to carry and all around hunting. Would not go any longer than 28". My brother has a 24" Pacnor and it shoots lights out too. Good luck. Jr
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Post by rambler on Jul 29, 2014 10:46:51 GMT -5
I have four Encore conversions. Two with Pacnors, a 24.3" and a 26". Also have two with 24" Bergara's. All four guns where converted by Slufoot to a Savage bushing plug. The Pacnors I have been shooting Luke's 310 with 10/60 4759/H4198 for a couple years. Average around 2670+/- depending on temp. Shot sub MOA out past 500yds and two deer last year at 406 and 556yds. The Bergara's I shot some 250BE's with 60gr of H4198 a little and shot 1.5" at 200yds but use them mostly for my girls saboted. On my Pacnors I did a taper of 1" out 8" then down to.850 at the bore. I am very comfortable shooting that load out of my Pacnors. Going to start shooting IMR3031 when it shows up. A little less pressure at the same velocity. IMO, 26" is perfect for a gun to carry and all around hunting. Would not go any longer than 28". My brother has a 24" Pacnor and it shoots lights out too. Good luck. Jr Sounds like you've got some nice guns for sure. What is going to dictate my barrel length, besides this advice and my initial outings at it's original length, will be how much barrel does the BP take up. I've heard the phrase "functional barrel length" or "usable barrel" and wonder if that plays a part in one's decision on length of barrel. That and twist rate. I just spoke with SMI and they state that the barrel has a finished length of 28 1/2" and will be ready to ship out by the end of this week.
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Post by bestill on Jul 29, 2014 18:00:34 GMT -5
When i figure barrel length i measure breech plug face to muzzle. So lets say your barrel measures 27.5 " then minus 2" breech plug then minus2" powder column leaves you with actual 23.5 usable barrel (rifling)
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Post by kralik4jr on Jul 30, 2014 5:56:06 GMT -5
I have four Encore conversions. Two with Pacnors, a 24.3" and a 26". Also have two with 24" Bergara's. All four guns where converted by Slufoot to a Savage bushing plug. The Pacnors I have been shooting Luke's 310 with 10/60 4759/H4198 for a couple years. Average around 2670+/- depending on temp. Shot sub MOA out past 500yds and two deer last year at 406 and 556yds. The Bergara's I shot some 250BE's with 60gr of H4198 a little and shot 1.5" at 200yds but use them mostly for my girls saboted. On my Pacnors I did a taper of 1" out 8" then down to.850 at the bore. I am very comfortable shooting that load out of my Pacnors. Going to start shooting IMR3031 when it shows up. A little less pressure at the same velocity. IMO, 26" is perfect for a gun to carry and all around hunting. Would not go any longer than 28". My brother has a 24" Pacnor and it shoots lights out too. Good luck. Jr Sounds like you've got some nice guns for sure. What is going to dictate my barrel length, besides this advice and my initial outings at it's original length, will be how much barrel does the BP take up. I've heard the phrase "functional barrel length" or "usable barrel" and wonder if that plays a part in one's decision on length of barrel. That and twist rate. I just spoke with SMI and they state that the barrel has a finished length of 28 1/2" and will be ready to ship out by the end of this week.
IMO, the barrel length is going to boil down to personal preference. The only real advantage to the longer barrel is velocity. I have a 30fps+/- difference in my 2 Pacnors which differ 1.7". Does not affect their accuracy. If you plan on shooting slower burning powders a longer barrel would be an advantage. If your thinking H4198 range you can go down to 22" or so. I would get the gun going and see what feels good and how it shoots. If you like the 28 1/2" length you can always go with a smooth die. A lot of guys prefer them to full form. I know nothing about smooth form as I have only full formed and love it. Again, good luck. Jr
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Post by bigiron on Jul 30, 2014 10:30:44 GMT -5
Do you have the SB1 frame or the SB2. The SB1 is not as strong and is not recommended for heavy loads. What is the difference between the frames and how do you tell the difference.
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Post by rambler on Jul 30, 2014 10:59:51 GMT -5
Do you have the SB1 frame or the SB2. The SB1 is not as strong and is not recommended for heavy loads. What is the difference between the frames and how do you tell the difference. bigiron:
Best I can tell is that the SB2 will accommodate the heaver loads of center fire ammunition where the SB1's are for shotguns and the like.
Many others on this board probably have a better explanation
Here is the link to the H&R website, it has some general information as well as a customer service phone number that you can call for additional info:
www.hr1871.com/support/accessoryprogram.asp
BTW: My frame's identification is on the barrel
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Post by rangeball on Jul 30, 2014 12:08:32 GMT -5
SMI always told me as the plug and barrel contain the pressure the frame type didn't matter. But that's with them putting a douglas barrel on it. H&R will not fit a CF barrel to a non-hardened frame.
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Post by rambler on Jul 30, 2014 13:01:04 GMT -5
SMI always told me as the plug and barrel contain the pressure the frame type didn't matter. But that's with them putting a douglas barrel on it. H&R will not fit a CF barrel to a non-hardened frame. rangeball:
I assume you've done business with SMI. Do they provide a primer extractor tool with their builds? I've got a gun coming from them in the next week or and I forgot to ask them.
thanks
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Post by pposey on Jul 30, 2014 15:07:44 GMT -5
My SMI Encore came with one but they are really easy to loose, I made a couple of extras really easy and hooked them to my reloader tubes with a short piece of small bungie cord.
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Post by rangeball on Jul 30, 2014 15:21:12 GMT -5
SMI always told me as the plug and barrel contain the pressure the frame type didn't matter. But that's with them putting a douglas barrel on it. H&R will not fit a CF barrel to a non-hardened frame. rangeball:
I assume you've done business with SMI. Do they provide a primer extractor tool with their builds? I've got a gun coming from them in the next week or and I forgot to ask them.
thanks
Mine did. I would assume they still do. It's just a flat piece of metal with the end bent and two prongs to fit around the lip of the primer to pry it out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 15:33:08 GMT -5
SMI always told me as the plug and barrel contain the pressure the frame type didn't matter. But that's with them putting a douglas barrel on it. H&R will not fit a CF barrel to a non-hardened frame. There was discussion here about the subject and the conscensus was that the breechplug contains the pressure and a weaker frame was not an issue.....A centerfire is a completely different situation Imo......Just Sayin,,,,,
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