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Post by deermangler on Jul 25, 2014 16:37:47 GMT -5
I'm looking to buy a complete smokeless rifle. Or if someone wants to build me one let me know please.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 16:47:36 GMT -5
Remington...Savage...?
Stainless...blued?
Caliber?
True muzzleloader or center fire conversion?
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 25, 2014 17:01:25 GMT -5
Keep all your offers, money and other sales talk in PM's please. By the way. I might have an extra one laying around
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 18:00:43 GMT -5
PM me if you want a rem of any caliber
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Post by airborneike on Jul 25, 2014 21:37:06 GMT -5
Talk to Hillbill aka Bill Travis....you will be happy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 21:53:46 GMT -5
Man you gotta get more specific other than smokelss.....I got stock stainless savage .50's to .458 pacnor or mcgowen barreled 700ssmll.....Its a good thing I haven't got two or three .40's......Everything has a price....
But not to me.....I gotta Sav age .50ss we can talk about pm......
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Post by deermangler on Jul 25, 2014 21:57:50 GMT -5
Looking for 45 cal with a remington action. With quality barrel such as krieger.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 22:08:50 GMT -5
Pacnor and Mcgowen are what 97% of what has been built smokeless conversions wise on a 700ml action with a hunter boltnose conversion....But Jeff and Carl and now Bill build Kreiger barreled builds....The Brux barreled builds are also a viable option for what you are wanting IMHO.....
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Post by vtecgsr95 on Jul 26, 2014 5:38:48 GMT -5
Did they decide the Kreiger was better than the others? Or just another option?
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Post by jims on Jul 26, 2014 8:00:32 GMT -5
To deermangler: Most were built with the PacNor and McGowen barrels. They shoot deer certainly well enough. Krieger and Brux barrels have been used, I have those on Savage ML actions but they are not for sale. IMO the latter are a step up over the other two but they will all take deer. The first two cost less and are set up for ease of conversion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 9:05:33 GMT -5
Did they decide the Kreiger was better than the others? Or just another option? The pacnors and mcgowens were the first ones to be prefit for the savage plug . They are both Button drawn rifling and shoot very well....The Kreiger and Brux barrels have cut rifling ....They are all match grade barrels.....There have been some builds recently with Douglas barrels also....... |
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Post by Richard on Jul 26, 2014 9:30:46 GMT -5
And I doubt anyone can really say that a Krieger/Brux or any other quality bench rest grade barrel can shoot any better than the Pac-Nor or McGowan in a Smoke less Muzzle loader. Precision benchrest CF rifle? Yes! SML..........No!
One would have to have two identical rifles built........one with a Pac-Nor and one with a Krieger barrel. Then they would would have to be shot together over a period of time with the same loads and records kept in order to make a valid dteremination as to which "might" be better than the other and then, by "how much?" Are we prairie doggin' or deer huntin'?
But that is jut the opinion of a long range bench rest shooter?
Richard
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Post by gar on Jul 26, 2014 10:32:41 GMT -5
I agree with Richard , and I have a krieger barreled rifle. All the barrels are good and it would take a lot of trigger pulling in our application to be able to tell a difference in pure accuracy IMO.
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Post by Dave W on Jul 26, 2014 11:39:27 GMT -5
Accuracy difference between my Shilen and McGowen barreled guns is pretty much little to none. The Shilen is very consistent from end to end where the Mcgowen has a tight spot that really irks me to no end.
If the Kreiger and Brux barrels are more similar to my Shilen then I would opt for one of those if I do another build.
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Post by dannoboone on Jul 26, 2014 11:43:32 GMT -5
Are we prairie doggin' or deer huntin'? Richard Yer ol' buddy Luke has gone prairie doggin', deer and elk huntin' with his RemPac.  Was it Mcgowen45 or 45Omega (keep getting these two mixed up....sorry) who has shot several one hole groups with a McGowen barrel? |
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Post by lwh723 on Jul 26, 2014 12:13:10 GMT -5
Are we prairie doggin' or deer huntin'? Richard Yer ol' buddy Luke has gone prairie doggin', deer and elk huntin' with his RemPac. Was it Mcgowen45 or 45Omega (keep getting these two mixed up....sorry) who has shot several one hole groups with a McGowen barrel? 310 apb.    |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jul 26, 2014 12:46:35 GMT -5
Accuracy difference between my Shilen and McGowen barreled guns is pretty much little to none. The Shilen is very consistent from end to end where the Mcgowen has a tight spot that really irks me to no end. If the Kreiger and Brux barrels are more similar to my Shilen then I would opt for one of those if I do another build. I sent the McGowen I bought thru Luke back and had them re - lap mine because it had a tight spot about 2/3 of the way down the barrel (about 8" from the muzzle) |
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jul 26, 2014 16:53:14 GMT -5
Did they decide the Kreiger was better than the others? Or just another option? In my opinion the Krieger and Brux barrels are superior over the Pacnor and McGowan. I've read that the Pacnor barrels need to be indexed when FF sizing bullets. This tells me that the lands and groves are not evenly spaced. Does that make a difference in accuracy,, maybe not but it does make it a pain in the rear when you are trying to reload in a hurry and you are trying to line up the rifling of the barrel with the grove you cut in the bullet. I have one customer that has 3 of my rifles built over the last 5 years all 3 of them are 45 caliber Krieger barrels with a 1-20 twist. He said that the same FF sizing die and the same setting works perfectly in all 3 barrels. The quality of the Kriger and Brux barrels can not be beat. One member here said he can shoot barns solids the are .451 without sizing them in his Mcgowen barrel with a .450 bore. I don't think you would ever get the bullet down the barrel if the bore was truly .450. The bore of that barrel is over sized. Will it still shoot good, well maybe it shoots good enough but it is an oversized bore. In my opinion the Krieger and Brux barrels are the better choice. |
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jul 26, 2014 17:06:50 GMT -5
Pacnor and Mcgowen are what 97% of what has been built smokeless conversions wise on a 700ml action with a hunter boltnose conversion....But Jeff and Carl and now Bill build Kreiger barreled builds....The Brux barreled builds are also a viable option for what you are wanting IMHO..... In my opinion... The reason Pacnor and Mcgowen barrels were first use for the conversions is because 1. They cost less money 2. They were willing to do the machine work needed so that the DIYer could simply screw off one barrel and screw on another. I've read on this forum many times about these barrels being low quality and having to be sent back for one reason or another. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 17:33:09 GMT -5
I have probably pushed bullets down as many different guns as anyone on the board in the last few years. most have been Mcgowen and Pacnor and recently Kreiger and Brux. I have yet to find a kreiger or Brux that was not super consistent end to end. However, I have only done a few of these barrels and many of the others.
without a doubt Pacnors button for the 451./.458 barrel is a little off groove to groove. unless you Fullform you will never know it. I have had many of their barrels that were absolute tac drivers, some not as good but all were sub moa. Mcgowens are good as well but you will find a bad apple more often than with the Pacs. BUT I have had some of theirs that shot better than I can and it seems that if the bore dia is within spec they are just as good as the pacs and maybe even better..
Yes Pacnor was willing to stick their neck out and do the machine work and we can thank Dave D for talking them into doing it, they have sold several hundred barrels as a result.
Same with Mcgowen and Greg talking them into doing the same.
one thing for sure, if you want to see how well a barrel is built then push a Fullform bullet down it, proof is in the "push"
If one wants the absolute best then I would agree, go with Krieger or Brux and rest assured you will have a shooter if assembled properly..
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jul 26, 2014 17:34:26 GMT -5
And I doubt anyone can really say that a Krieger/Brux or any other quality bench rest grade barrel can shoot any better than the Pac-Nor or McGowan in a Smoke less Muzzle loader. Precision benchrest CF rifle? Yes! SML..........No! One would have to have two identical rifles built........one with a Pac-Nor and one with a Krieger barrel. Then they would would have to be shot together over a period of time with the same loads and records kept in order to make a valid dteremination as to which "might" be better than the other and then, by "how much?" Are we prairie doggin' or deer huntin'? But that is jut the opinion of a long range bench rest shooter? Richard All my rifles, weather center fire or SPML's are built for bench rest accuracy. When I build an SPML or center fire I'm building the rifle to shoot 1 hole groups. I've learned over the years that those one hole groups come easier for me when the rifle is built on some manufactures barrels verse others. There are a few barrels I will not use on my builds because of past problems with them. When I called the maker they said "Sometimes the bore might be a little under or over and still get past QC, just send it back and we will make you a new one." After waiting months for the barrel to begin with and building the rifle, spending the time to test it,, who wants to wait months more for the second barrel. IMO, if you can tell the difference between one barrel over another when used on a bench rest rifle you will be able to tell the difference when used on a muzzle loading rifle. Especially if you shoot sabotless. The ML does not have a chamber to be off center of the bore, it has no cartridge to be headspaced incorrectly, there's no bullet that needs to be perfectly jammed into the lands. With an SPML and a properly sized bullet, if the bullet is started into the bore perfectly straight, it will travel perfectly straight down the bore until it exits perfectly straight when fired. There's less things on an SPML to worry about than on a center fire rifle. IMO. |
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jul 26, 2014 18:09:39 GMT -5
"Are we Prairie Doggin or Deer Huntin"?
Some guys don't hunt at all so they want the most accuracy possible from their SPML. When I shoot from the bench I want to hit that little orange dot, not 2 inches high or low and not 2 inches to the left or right, the little orange dot is what I want.. So I choose to build all my rifles with barrels I trust for precision manufacturing. When I order a barrel from Krieger or Brux I know I will get exactly what I ordered. Precision barrels are the most important part of an accurate rifle, not a custom action or expensive hardware. The accuracy of the rifle all starts in the barrel. All the other things,, scope, trigger, and stocks will help bring out that accuracy but it won't make a bad barrel shoot good.
When building a rifle, research the components, buy the best you can afford and build it the way you want it... After all it's gonna be your rifle and you will probably have if for many years to come....
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Post by Richard on Jul 26, 2014 19:54:03 GMT -5
Nice shot Luke! But isn't that your PN barrel? And no story? 50 yards? 100 yards?
Hank and Hillbill may have some valid reasons to prefer Krieger/Brux barrels (spacing of the lands and groves). Since I have chosen to stay with the smooth sized bullets, I have not encountered any problems with either PN or McGowan. As I had originally indicated, most people who visit this forum are not into shooting 4 and 500 yards. They are more interested in good accuracy at normal deer hunting ranges. And maybe the extra $100 to $150 to get a Krieger or Brux is not within their "pocket book" or "need?"
Anyway, it is nice to have the variety of equipment we have available so members can make an educated choice.
Richard
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Post by edge on Jul 26, 2014 20:05:44 GMT -5
I have had a Savage, a Krieger, Shilen, A&B, and a H&R and all will shoot a one hole group...as long as I don't reload for a second shot  Actually except for the H&R and Savage they were very consistent from end to end. The Savage barrel would shoot but the bore looked like a beaver gnawed the rifling and it plastic fouled very badly. Pacnor was the first company to step up to the plate when dave d. asked them to chamber for the Savage BP. edge. |
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Post by jims on Jul 26, 2014 21:00:06 GMT -5
I have smokeless muzzleloaders barreled by SMI, Douglas, McGowen, PacNor, Brux, Krieger and Savage. They are all deer capable but some are more consistent bore wise from muzzle to bore. I have no gauges to verify but IMO the Brux is the most consistent in size. I shoot it sabotless at times (it is a .45) and that uniformity is of value. The best group I ever shot is also with the Brux but they all shoot well enough.
I guess it is like the Chevy/Ford/Dodge/Lincoln/Cadillac. They can all do the job, just personal preference I guess.
Thank goodness we have a number of good choices.
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