Full form of bore diameter bullets

[linebaugh]

I know this is probably a problematic question given each individuals interpretation of how it feels but in general can you give me an idea of what to expect while full forming bore diameter bullets?
I realize they need lubed and I understand the process but just how hard is it to size them down? Can I use my single stage reloading press or are most using an arbor press?
What lubes are you having the best luck with?

Specifically I will be forming .458 bullets if that makes any difference at all. Thanks to all who reply.

[Deleted]

What press do you have? It takes a pretty decent amount of force but the rockchucker IV does alright for me. I use castrol stick wax and you can really tell if you missed lubing a bullet, it will go through very, very hard.

[linebaugh]

My single stage is an old rcbs rockchucker. I think the press is strong enough but I'm curious to just how hard it is to push them through.

I have sized down some jacketed and probably 250,000 lead bullets by hand and I know even lead can be a bear if you try to take the size down beyond about .004-5 without good lubrication. I sized down some 300gr .408 (I think 408) down to .401 as a trial in sabots and I had to go with 2 or three dies... and they still went through rough. When they were not lubed enough I actually stuck a couple.

I've got a friend here that has a FF die but we can't seem to get our schedules to line up. We will both be newbies to the FF process and I'm just getting curious and antsy waiting to try it.

It just seems to me that FF will be the way to go. I tried smooth briefly and I honestly was not impressed.

While on the subject what issues are there with loading FF bullets? I've read that most index but I have also read it isn't necessary. I would prefer not to index and cant imagine any accuracy gain since the bullet is still bumping up to fill the bore.

Too much idle time waiting to finish a build I suppose. I would guess it will be about black and white after the first few rounds go down range but for now I'm just curious.

[Deleted]

I always thought we were suppose to be indexing but then Earnhardt said he isn't anymore so I threw that right out the window. I still mark my die and each bullet in case I have to run it through twice but I don't worry about the barrel anymore.

[charles]

I use a single stage rcbs rock chucker to ff APB 310 bullets it work fine. I still think you want to index

[Dave W]

Get an industial stick wax, I use CRL's since I get it cheap at work. Used Alox bullet lube for years for smooth sizing, but full forming is tougher, there is a noticeable difference in resistance between the Alox and CRL.
I have an older Rockchucker and snapped the toggle block when I started full forming and was still using Alox. RCBS replaced it free of charge, will it hold up- I think so since I am using stick wax now but I haven't been shooting other than one time to see how the new stock compared to the old one for accuracy on my .442/.451.

As for indexing, you will just have to test for yourself. My gun has a noticeable difference in seating resistance depending on how you position the bullet in the bore. To me indexing is no big deal since I put a mark on the bullet before sizing and it is still there afterwards.

[dannoboone]

From the recommendation of a board member, I got a
2-ton ratcheting arbor press. It made life sooooo
much easier. Went from needing a cheater pipe and
having the table boards sounding like they were
going to snap, to not even needing to bolt down
the arbor press. Surprising how handy this press
has been with other things, too.

Another vote for the Castrol Stick Wax. That's the
one Tom Post said I should use and I figured he
knew what he was talking about.

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2014 9:13:47 GMT -5 @myers129 said:

I always thought we were suppose to be indexing but then Earnhardt said he isn't anymore so I threw that right out the window. I still mark my die and each bullet in case I have to run it through twice but I don't worry about the barrel anymore.

I think I've indexed 5 of my 8 barrels.
2 of them had obvious benefits from indexing.
I'd try indexing it. It can't hurt.

[linebaugh]

Wow. Okay then. For as much as I have read this board I sure feel like I have been missing a bunch on this one and I truly appreciate the input.

I believe I will start looking for a cheap arbor press while waiting on my barrel. Sounds like that will save me some elbow grease and give my rockchucker a break.

If anybody on the board is interested in a .458 350gr high bc bullet I think I may have stumbled on a cheap way to make some very high quality bullets. If you have access to some machining equipment or are very ingenious many on here could manufacture them at home for about .75$ each. If there was enough interest perhaps we could do a group buy on the components to get cost down even more.

No idea on BC yet. I ordered a hundred bullets and plan to do some testing if my buddy and I can ever get together and get his gun running.

RiverRat has some pictures of the one and only prototype I have made so far. He is more than welcome to post the pics, I am too lazy/ignorant. I plan to make more soon but have no collet system for my lathe so I need to design a bullet holder for my lathe or mill that will speed things up.

Bullet is a speer 350gr .458 flat point. Tip is a corbin vld large. The tip and meplat meld together very well and my plan will be to make a swage pin that will seat and form the tip to the bullet under the pressure of full forming.

Hope this helps the board

[Deleted]

This is what Linebauh is designing looks really good and if it works out it would be another great option.

[dannoboone]

RR, could ya give us a close-up view of that bullet?

Jul 13, 2014 11:08:18 GMT -5 linebaugh said:

I believe I will start looking for a cheap arbor press while waiting on my barrel. Sounds like that will save me some elbow grease and give my rockchucker a break.

If anybody on the board is interested in a .458 350gr high bc bullet I think I may have stumbled on a cheap way to make some very high quality bullets. If you have access to some machining equipment or are very ingenious many on here could manufacture them at home for about .75$ each. If there was enough interest perhaps we could do a group buy on the components to get cost down even more.

That is one very interesting project. Please keep us
posted. Wondering if their .458 300gr bullets would
work as well??

Here's a link to the arbor press I got. It ain't cheap
and shipping was rediculous, but I do not regret it,
and neither does my shoulder, or the reloading table
for that matter:

www.ebay.com/itm/Shars-2-Ton-Heavy-Duty-Ratcheting-Arbor-Press-New-/300909319119?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460f97d3cf

The advantage of a ratcheting press is that you can
get the lever in whatever position that is comfortable
for you, and it never places you in an awkward position.
Nice one-handed strokes. I drilled a correct size hole
in 3/8" steel which is placed on the press plate. That
gave the die a more secure position.

[Deleted]

Lol this is what Linebauh sent me but I'm excited about this bullet.

[bluedog]

dannoboone, which 2-ton ratcheting arbor press did you get and where? thanks!

[jims]

I had no success with my Rockcrusher. I went to a 2 ton arbor press. It works well. I also use the lube for bullet sizing that Tom Post suggested since that is where I got three of my dies. It should last a lifetime, at least my lifetime but then again I have been reloading in some manner for over half a century.

[linebaugh]

Loud and clear on the arbor press. I'm looking.

Tips may mate up with other bullets including the 300gr however I can tell you from the ogive design that the 300 will not flow well with a corbin tip.

The corbins have a meplat interface of .260 and a stem of .110 but not sure on length of either. For how I plan to install them I will be using a 7/64 bit in a modified drill bushing that will clean the bullet face at the same time as boring the stem hole. 7/64 is like .1095 so they will need to be seated. By making a stem for the FF die that mirrors the bullet nose I hope to swage the tip in due to the full forming pressure.

Right now it's just an idea but if it works I hope that people interested in a heavy bullet will have access to some cheap and high quality bullets.

[hemicuda]

You definitely need an arbor press. I got mine off of a buddy for .... better not say, it was very cheap. I had been looking for a long time when this one came up. So far I've just used grease since I have plenty of power. But bullets need lubed. Also you have to index when you cut in rifling at .003-.004 deep because they are not going down unless they are in the grooves. Put a bullet in the bore and look at a light, if you can see much light you don't have a proper fit. When the fit wipes almost all light you have a good fit. I put a prick mark on end of barrel so I know where to index it to. It's easy also put one on the sizer so you can index if you need to run some thru twice. Some bullets seem to expand out a little after sitting for a time. I plan to run them thru again before hunting just to be sure they go down.
Hey, I do like those bullets and will watch for any new reports. Thanks

[cowhunter]

I think Pacnor barrels have non-uniform lands so that they only go down the easiest one way. It is not hard to find the perfect position. I have a magicarker line on the very bottom of my barrel. When I get a bullet in the right position, I put mark about 3/4ths the way up and then when hunting the indexing comes quick. I have a Krieger barrel and I can't tell the difference between lands. There is no bullet, including solid copper without annealing, that I can't get through my FF presses in my Rockchucker. Buy any solid bullet sizing wax. With the tough ones use a breaker bar and unscrew the die about 11/2 inches so that you use the bottom of the stroke -- it has about 30% or so more power that way. Support bottom of press with 2by4. I got most of this from Deadeye and Onecardchuck.

[Deleted]

I also use a Rockchucker and my bullets in the Kreiger .442/.452 barrels have really deep grooves which is a bit of a challenge on the 327s but it works fine.

yes the Pacnors need to be indexed but on the Mcgowens, kreigers and Brux I can tell no difference in indexing..

[Deleted]

Here is another look at Linebaugh's Speer bullet modified. On the left is Luke's AP bullet (310) on the right is the 350 Speer bullet with the Corbin tip. Luke's bullet is around .425 BC which makes me think this one should be in the high .300's or even break the .400 mark.

[bigmoose]

i have an Arbor press one ton that sized thousands of bullets, since I am now only shooting .50 cal. I have no use for it. I have no idea what its worth, but shipping would be costly
Its a Palmgren model 61101

[Richard]

Tim.................from the rotational marks it appears you are using the compound on the lathe to cut the jacket to match the taper of the tip? This would be similar to the 230 gr. bullets that I installed one of your tips in only I did not machine mine.

Richard

[linebaugh]

Richard, the marks on that bullet are from using valve grinding compound to make a mirror image of the tip and ogive in a piece of brass. At the time I only had the one bullet to work with so that's why you see the lapping marks. The tip actually mates up very well as is. I made a drill holder the other night that will both drill for the stem and square the bullet meplat at the same time. I'm not intending to remove any lead from the tip but do need to square any imperfections so everything seats square.
I just received two boxes of bullets and think I have everything in place to do a trial run. I even have a gun and ff die on loan here to shoot them through, too bad it's gonna be in the 90's... seems like a better day to work in the shop with the AC on but we shall see.

[Richard]

Good luck with them Tim!

[linebaugh]

Well I put exactly 7 bullets together and everything worked well. I'm out of tips so it looks like I will be shooting exactly one group with one load.

Back to the original post. I sized some bullets today in a FF die and shot some for the first time. Here are my thoughts:

I will be buying an arbor press. I was able to push them through but I can also tell you I will not be making a habit of it. My bench has a 1/4" treadplate top with a 1/2" plywood overlay and it flexed my bench. For a brief period I thought I bent my ram arm.
I lubed with allox, redding case forming wax and furniture wax. In all honesty they all felt the same. I would like to try the castrol wax stick.

Sized some of my bullets, some 325 ftx and some of Luke's 310 apb. For certain the 310 APB sized the easiest. In addition the 310 APB is one fine looking bullet and I'm impressed.

Loading the bullets into the rifle was very interesting. They load and feel great going down the barrel when full formed. For me personally I can't imagine running anything but FF. I'm not knocking the smooth guys, just saying for me personally.
The gun I have on loan is a McGowan and I am not indexing. Some positions do fit easier than others but they all seem to work.

Hope my rambling helps someone.

[Deleted]

looking forward to some test groups

[Deleted]

Just received Linebauh's creation from the Speer hot cor flat tip. Holy cow this thing is incredible! If it shoots as good as it looks we might have a $1> bullet.

Going to need a break and possibly a mercury tube in stock though. 350 grain bullet is allot of a bullet!

Not sure when I'll get to test it however thinking 2200-2300 might be a good place to start for testing. This bullet looks like it could be .400 BC or higher bullet.

[rangeball]

I know you settled on an arbor press but I use a single stage with stick wax and have no issues, even with solid coppers, although they only require about half the force if you anneal them.

[Deleted]

that's a sharp looking bullet! I would bet the bc is in the low 400s. it will be interesting to see how well they shoot.

My thoughts on Full forming;

I have done a good deal of full forming and have built several full form .45s (pistol bores) as well as a .416 with another .416 barrel to put on my gun shortly.

My experiences;

full forming is a learning curve both in concept and in practice. while smooth forming is easier to master I will agree with linebaugh, FF is my cup of tea. I like the idea of having the rifling engraved on the bullet and have also noticed that barrels generally copper foul less shooting FF. It makes sense when you think about it, a smooth form bullet swells as its traveling down the bore in effect smearing copper as it goes. the fullform bullet swells much less and deposits less fouling. Just my observation for what its worth..

I size everything in a rockchucker and it suffices, while im no monster the old guy is still pretty strong. would an arbor press work better? Im sure it would but as of yet I haven't sprung for one. the .442/.452 kreigers are a bear to size but doable. the .416s CEs must be annealed if you don't have an ultra mag press or an arbor press. Castrol stick wax seems to work the best for me and that's all I use now.

some say there is no accuracy difference between smooth and FF and they might be right, I will find out as soon as I get the brux on my ole Savage boat anchor. I will shoot land rider 300s and FF apbs and compare accuracy from the same barrel. same bullet design from the same company and close to the same weight, I will see for myself..

is a arbor press necessary for full forming .458 bullets? easier? probably but don't let it scare you off if you don't have one..

[lwh723]

Ya, my 310's aren't bad at all to size when lubed properly--as seen on TV. Now a 325FTX, that's more of a workout!

[madcityhoosier]

Sept 12, 2014 17:52:31 GMT -5 lwh723 said:

...when lubed properly--as seen on TV.

Uh, we don't get that channel at our house!