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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 25, 2014 7:30:10 GMT -5
Good morning,
This is my first official post here. First of all I have to say this site is a wealth of knowledge and a lot of help so far. I was hoping to gain some insight on my Rem Pac build. I want to Shoot long Range with the gun. Hopefully up to 800 yds. How ever I cannot decide between a 26" Pacnor in .458 or. 451. The other option a 27" in .458 or 451 with an integral MUZZLE brake. I dont mind sizing the bullets I am just not sure what gun will provide the best accuracy. Also I will be going sabot less. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. I apologize in advance if this was touched On before, but I went 30 pages back and found nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 8:38:25 GMT -5
In either case with a pacnor you will be sizing all your bullets. I don't believe anyone has been able to prove that full form offers any accuracy gains over just using a smooth die. Myself I think the smooth is easier to get to shoot well, so if it's you first build I would probably do a 458 and start with a smooth die. Shoot until you have rung all the accuracy out and then order a full form and shoot some APB's and possibly 7mmfreaks offering. Either way you go it won't be your only SML so you will eventually have both!  |
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Post by jims on Jun 25, 2014 8:53:25 GMT -5
Bestill has some long range experience, a call out to him could help.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 8:59:52 GMT -5
If you are wanting to shoot 800yds,then I would get something close to Earnhardts setup....31 inch,.451...and shoots over 3100ft/sec.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 9:14:18 GMT -5
In either case with a pacnor you will be sizing all your bullets. I don't believe anyone has been able to prove that full form offers any accuracy gains over just using a smooth die. Myself I think the smooth is easier to get to shoot well, so if it's you first build I would probably do a 458 and start with a smooth die. Shoot until you have rung all the accuracy out and then order a full form and shoot some APB's and possibly 7mmfreaks offering. Either way you go it won't be your only SML so you will eventually have both! I agree that a smooth formed bullet will shoot as good as a full form. But I don't agree that it's easier to shoot well. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 9:21:18 GMT -5
I guess I meant that there is more room for error with full form? With indexing all your bullets to the die and bore as well as when you start running through a die twice. Earnhardt has tremendous amounts of full form experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 9:41:33 GMT -5
I guess I meant that there is more room for error with full form? With indexing all your bullets to the die and bore as well as when you start running through a die twice. Earnhardt has tremendous amounts of full form experience. You don't have to index bullets. That last group at 500 yards wasn't indexed. It's my opinion there's more room for error with smooth sizing. You have to perfectly size the bullet to ride the lands. A wad is normally necessary, to help seal the bore upon ignition. The smooth formed bullet has to expand .008" to fill the bore, whereas with a full form the bullet only needs to expand .001 or so. Depending on how tight you size the bullet. That's one of the reasons it's easier to use a full form bullet with a slower powder without a booster. (but the larger vents also make the need for a booster less important) I have nothing against smooth form guns, my Savage MLII .458 shoots them great. |
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 25, 2014 9:56:16 GMT -5
I suppose I Should be looking into a 28"barrel .458 With integral brake? I will be shooting not only long range bench/ but the stand /blind, as we as out west for mulies and antelope. so pretty much an all around gun. Also I will be shooting M/H or Lukes bullets. I am assuming for a rookie like myself a Smooth die will give me all the accuracy I need. 800 yds is a long shot so probably more in the range of 600-750 would be the max range. Also, sorry if another similar post comes through the first didn't post immediately. I am assuming due to my new membership. I just wanted to make sure at least one got through.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 25, 2014 19:23:16 GMT -5
Now I am leaning more towards the 27" again. I believe the 28" would just be too long for a tree stand or blind but a 27" should be that happy medium. The only thing is the powder. Do I use a slower burning powder due to the extra length? I was thinking H4198, but I am unsure whether it will burns too quickly for the 27.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 19:38:41 GMT -5
How heavy of a bullet do you want to shoot and do you have a target speed you wish to reach? 27 and 28" tubes are pretty long and usually heavy rigs, for me anything over 25 is long in a stand but a blind is a different story.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 25, 2014 20:00:49 GMT -5
I was thinking the 27 to 325 gr range. Either Lukes bullets or Parker match hunters.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 25, 2014 20:16:19 GMT -5
The main reason I am so unsure is just my inexperience. I have only owned .22 rifles and slug guns. Luke recommended 26" but I just want to ensure I have accuracy and long range capabilities to kill to 600 yds or more. I just want to ensure that I do everything right the first time. I promised my fiance that this would be my last project for awhile LOL. I know this is my decision in the end but I am feeling very indecisive since there is about a grand on the line for my barreled action!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 20:52:54 GMT -5
If you are staying at the 275gr range then 4198 will probably be your go to powder. If you get into the 310-327 gr you can start to utilize slower powders. Guess it depends what part of the country you're in too, if it doesn't get real cold where you are you can use a wider variety of powders that can tend to be temp sensitive on the coldest days. I don't know if you have a specific reason for pacnor but for a first build the mcgowens that Luke sells are helpful in my opinion. They come with a drop if you wish to get a full form die, yet with both of mine the Parker bullets can be used without any need for a sizing die. 78riverrat has had good success out to 400yds with a McGowen so of say 600 is feasible.
Just putting that out there for thought. The mcgowen barrel is 110-125 cheaper than pacnor and if it saves you a smooth die that's another 160 saved. I have both mcgowen and Pacnors and both will shine on their day at the range.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 25, 2014 21:32:32 GMT -5
The reason I went to Pacnor was Luke told me that the McGowan barrels are no longer being manufactured on the large side.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 21:33:10 GMT -5
If its your one time investment... go long if you're wanting to shoot long...imo once again
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Post by bestill on Jun 25, 2014 21:44:22 GMT -5
I would follow lukes advise when concerning barrel length i personally see no advantage to barrel exceeding 26" when you are talking accuracy. Only advantage to 26" plus barrel in my opinion is velocity and sales pitch of how fast gun is but that dont put bullet in the xring.
Hope im not out of line but when you speak of your experience with a 22 and slug gun i will make a recommendation to find a friend with a proven long range cartridge rifle and put some bullets downrange at 500 yds to set your personal goals for your new build. 500 yds a long way let alot 700-800 especially in a hunting situation. I personally feel very comfortable at 500 yds at range with my front loader but 300 yds in the cold weather and wind and deer shows up you better be on your game.. several great builders on board to steer you straight and luke is one of them.
I will recommend finding a builder capable of threading barrel for action and breech install and go with a 1-20 twist25.5 " .458 Douglas xx barrel. Here's to key reason accurate and no sizing need. Get parker match hunters and load and shoot. Good luck.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 25, 2014 22:13:20 GMT -5
Forgive me, I also own a TC ML. I have shot to 330 yds with it. understand it sounds bad that I do not have much experience but we have to start somewhere. I am very mechanically inclined so I do not really foresee any technical issues with operating the gun or anything like that. A couple of my very close friends all shoot long range. They build serious guns way out of my price range. One is working on a rem 700 based action in ,338 lapua and the other is building a 6.5 creed more. I think Lukes advise was good but I just wanted to see what others thought about a longer barrel. Longer barrel does equal more FPS, so it works as a marketing tool but also the faster the bullet is traveling the more retained down range energy it will have when it hammers a deers vitals.
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Post by bestill on Jun 25, 2014 23:28:19 GMT -5
Accuracy beats speed every time. I wasn't doubting your ability just that700 yds is along way. I personally think350 yds is a realistic distance for most people. I just got schooled in a 500 yd match Saturday i shoot327 gr bullet at 2400 fps inline i shot 11 of 15 bulls. Match winner shot 13 of 15 bulls with a 530 gr 1300fps inline
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 26, 2014 10:15:59 GMT -5
Alight I made up my mint on the barrel. Sticking with pacnor, .458, 26" with a muzzle brake. Thank you all for the great advise. Now for all of the other details! I plan in running a B&c medalist M40 stock in tan.
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Post by onecardchuck on Jun 26, 2014 14:05:02 GMT -5
In either case with a pacnor you will be sizing all your bullets. I don't believe anyone has been able to prove that full form offers any accuracy gains over just using a smooth die. Myself I think the smooth is easier to get to shoot well, so if it's you first build I would probably do a 458 and start with a smooth die. Shoot until you have rung all the accuracy out and then order a full form and shoot some APB's and possibly 7mmfreaks offering. Either way you go it won't be your only SML so you will eventually have both! You forgot to consider if you want to shoot solid copper bullets it is way easier to get them to shoot accurately using full form versus smooth form. Plus one to what Earnhardt said it is easier to get full form bullets to shoot well it is much harder to get smooth bullets to shoot accurately and my hat goes off to the smooth shooters as they put in way more time and effort than us full form guys. |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 26, 2014 14:16:45 GMT -5
Good. You beat me to the post. The short version: I was going to say long barrels don't necessarily mean long range and anything over 26" is really long if you have to carry or climb with it.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 26, 2014 14:28:55 GMT -5
I think that I will defiantly be going full form. I spoke with Luke and he said that I will be getting the drop and form for the full form die.
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 26, 2014 16:52:37 GMT -5
Alight I made up my mind on the barrel. Sticking with pacnor, .458, 26" with a muzzle brake. Thank you all for the great advise. Now for all of the other details! I think that I will defiantly be going full form. I spoke with Luke and he said that I will be getting the drop and form for the full form die. Good decisions. I haul a 28" barreled RemPac 700 up into my tree stand, so your 26" over a 25" shouldn't be noticed much at all. If you shoot Luke's APB's, you will certainly have to have that full form die, as they are full bore .458's (and VERY accurate). The .451 MH's don't leave much engraved rifling on the jacket after full form sizing and you may need veggie wads under them. It will also be a matter of getting used to "feeling" the lands to match up with the sized bullet since the engraving is difficult to see. It will be worth it, since they are also very accurate. Good read here, about long distance with the 275gr MH: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/14178/rem-brux-antelope-doe-510ydsIf you are willing to shoot duplex loads, IMR 3031 does a great job. I use Green Dot with it for the primer powder, but others probably work just as well. Have a great time with your build! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2014 17:37:26 GMT -5
I have shot a lot of bullets both smooth and full form and built a lot of gums both ways.
Advantages of either? it depends but for the avj joe I would suggest a .458 with a smooth die. Why? its just easier. easier to size for and you have a large selection of bullets to choose from and even the .40 saboted stuff if you so desire.
Better? NO. I don't think so but its a shorter learning curve than full form.
26-28" barrel? not necessary. unless you want to shoot the slower powders a shorter tube will do nicely. I started out using 28" then 26" but now have decided 24" is the perfect length for me. believe me, I have built many of each length from 28-22" and when it comes time to hit the woods I will almost always reach for the shorter barreled gun, even if I think a 400 yd shot might present itself. nothing wrong with a 27 or 28 " barrel but they do get cumbersome even in a shooting house or tree stand.
also remember if you use a brake you are adding 1.5" plus to the length and 4 oz or so on the end of the barrel..
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 26, 2014 19:37:23 GMT -5
+1, you would be amazed at how far you can shoot with a short barrel.
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jun 27, 2014 15:20:19 GMT -5
Thank you Gentlemen. I think that I will be plenty happy with my decisions thus far. It seems as though everyone has their own opinions or experiences with smooth and full form dies. Me personally, I am leaning more towards .458 Full form with APB's. But is it really worth the extra $ 40.00 to go full form especially when I could just go smooth with M/H's and call it a day?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 15:43:46 GMT -5
The only thing about the full form die is that it can be used for both .451 and .458 bullets. Not very easy with .451 but you can line the lands up with a little practice. If you went smooth there is a lot of successful load info for the MHs, you could start with a load that has been shot by a lot of us. You might not have to alter the recipe at all or maybe a couple grains here or there. You might even consider contacting hankins custom rifles and ask about his die that will do both smooth and full form. It is a little more than swinglocks full form die but it will do both for you. Beyond that I know nothing about it, never seen a picture or report of its use.
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Post by jims on Jun 27, 2014 17:01:42 GMT -5
Bestill has won a number of his shoots with no die at all and the 275 Match Hunters and a properly sized barrel, I think he uses the Douglas barrels however.
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Post by hawghunter on Jun 27, 2014 21:25:29 GMT -5
Searching only back 30 pages only scratches the surface on what there is available. Use the search function, your learning curve will be shortened.
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 27, 2014 23:28:43 GMT -5
Me personally, I am leaning more towards .458 Full form with APB's. But is it really worth the extra $ 40.00 to go full form especially when I could just go smooth with M/H's and call it a day? Probably not worth the extra $40. You'll never need to wonder how the APB's would have shot out of your rifle, nor will you ever consider a couple of Barnes .458 copper bullets. Nor will you ever consider some of the cheaper .458 jacketed bullets for less expensive practicing. Save yourself the money.  |
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