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Post by bestill on May 21, 2014 20:44:09 GMT -5
Ive been shooting blackhorn in 45 sabotless with match Hunter for several years and feel got things very accurate. Im curious to learn more. Like to know what members between shot cleaning procedure is for maximum accuracy?
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Post by Alabama on May 21, 2014 22:10:14 GMT -5
How is expansion on the MH with black horn. Several months ago I spoke with Bob Parker about shooting the MH in a BP gun. He didn't recommend it due to expansion issues at lower velocities. But I'm thinking a well placed shot won't make any difference if it expands or not.
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Post by bestill on May 21, 2014 22:24:00 GMT -5
Im getting2400 fps with blackhorn and shot 8 deer last season dead in tracks high shoulder from 60 yds to 336 yds. I see no issue .
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Post by encore50a on May 22, 2014 6:29:35 GMT -5
Ive been shooting blackhorn in 45 sabotless with match Hunter for several years and feel got things very accurate. Im curious to learn more. Like to know what members between shot cleaning procedure is for maximum accuracy? Two different rifles, two different results........
Encore Pro Hunter, 209x50 - 75grs BH weight - Barnes 250gr TMZ: It takes two fouling shots with BH to bring the rifle back to its true zero. First shot will be (every time) 4" high and 2" right. Second shot, will be 2" high and 1" right. All shots shot there after will be on top one another. With this rifle, I've fired up to 40 rounds, never swabbing between shots, with no loss of accuracy/groups.
Ultimate, 100grs BH weight - 300gr SST: Baring the 20 moa issues, I've found when shooting this load, its better to swab the barrel after the third shot to maintain a group.
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Post by bestill on May 22, 2014 6:48:49 GMT -5
Rite on. Both rifle are 50 with sabot correct?
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Post by encore50a on May 22, 2014 7:03:42 GMT -5
Rite on. Both rifle are 50 with sabot correct? Correct. |
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Post by encore50a on May 22, 2014 7:28:26 GMT -5
Im getting2400 fps with blackhorn and shot 8 deer last season dead in tracks high shoulder from 60 yds to 336 yds. I see no issue . I'm either not awake yet or, getting to darn old. I didn't realize you posted your velocity before sending a PM. |
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Post by 7mmfreak on May 24, 2014 12:21:47 GMT -5
How is expansion on the MH with black horn. Several months ago I spoke with Bob Parker about shooting the MH in a BP gun. He didn't recommend it due to expansion issues at lower velocities. But I'm thinking a well placed shot won't make any difference if it expands or not. A bullet that is .451" is the same diameter as a .308" that expands 1.5x it's diameter. In small and medium bores expansion is a legitimate concern; not so in big bores. I do not worry about bullet expansion in .45 caliber or larger bullets. Lots of animals die as receiving hard-cast .45 or larger lead slugs in lever-guns, revolvers, and solids from DGRs. |
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Post by ronlaughlin on May 24, 2014 14:41:32 GMT -5
It seems to me there is more to expansion than just the final diameter. The work done to expand the bullet is done by the flesh of the critter being struck. Even though the diameter of the expanded 308 bullet is the same as the diameter of the unexpanded 45 bullet, the 308 bullet will do more damage because of the necessary work done by the critter' tissue, to change the shape of the bullet. A 45 caliber bullet that expands, will be forced to expand by the tissue. This force does more damage to the tissue, than would be done, if the bullet maintained it's shape. Right, or wrong, this is my opinion.
Of course, what if the bullet is so soft that it expands a lot, but never makes it to the vitals? Even a horrendous surface wound may allow the critter to escape. A hard bullet that maintains it shape, and penetrates through the critter, through the vitals, is more better. Again, my opinion.
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Post by 7mmfreak on May 24, 2014 15:12:41 GMT -5
I agree there is more to it than just expansion. That said, it is still hard to imagine the smaller bullet doing more damage or PH and soldiers would all want smaller and faster bullets. For instance, assume a 300gr/.451" bullet with an impact velocity of 2400fps versus a 180gr/.308" bullet with an impact velocity of 2800fps. Let's say they both completely pass thru. We know any .308" bullet will expand at 2800fps (the degree of which is determined by design and impact medium) but our .451" bullet may just punch a hole based on design and impact medium. If they both pass thru with an exit velocity of 800fps retained velocity then the .451" expended 3410 ft*lbs of the 3836 ft*lbs it arrived with while the .308" expends 2878 ft*lbs of the 3133 ft*lbs it arrived with. All the while the .451 expends that energy with a greater surface area than the .308 bullet and likely creates a larger permanent wound channel.
The only big bore bullets I have ever shot that expanded to double their size are pure lead .504" conicals and they arrived on target (a pig's shoulder) with 1000fps and 976 ft*lbs (tops), still exited, and the animal expired on the spot with massive wound channel. When it comes to bullets (like engines) there is no replacement for displacement but there is also a lot to be said for energy and momentum.
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Post by bestill on May 24, 2014 16:06:16 GMT -5
Ive been shooting blackhorn in 45 sabotless with match Hunter for several years and feel got things very accurate. Im curious to learn more. Like to know what members between shot cleaning procedure is for maximum accuracy? Thanks expansion info. Thread started with this post any info on between shot procedures |
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Post by 7mmfreak on May 24, 2014 16:11:12 GMT -5
Sorry if you think your thread got hijacked.
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Post by artjr338wm on Jun 14, 2014 13:57:23 GMT -5
I use one cotton patch sprayed with action cleaner that I run the length of the barrel to the breach plug, remove, flip patch and repeat, discard patch, load and shoot.
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Post by yule on Aug 10, 2014 16:21:00 GMT -5
I only clean after each range visit.
Start with a clean barrel.
Shoot 2 foul shots.
Shoot my groups ( usually 10 - 15 shots ) 84 weighed grains of BH209 with a 300 Scorpion PT Gold ( 45 cal Rempac) Sub MOA out to 300 yards.
Clean when I get home with Windex and Butch's Bore Shine
My Question - If going on a hunt , do you shoot and reload , each day ? Also , how long can you go without cleaning , if you have only fired a few ( 2-5 ) shots ?
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Post by encore50a on Aug 10, 2014 17:46:51 GMT -5
I only clean after each range visit. Start with a clean barrel. Shoot 2 foul shots. Shoot my groups ( usually 10 - 15 shots ) 84 weighed grains of BH209 with a 300 Scorpion PT Gold ( 45 cal Rempac) Sub MOA out to 300 yards. Clean when I get home with Windex and Butch's Bore Shine My Question - If going on a hunt , do you shoot and reload , each day ? Also , how long can you go without cleaning , if you have only fired a few ( 2-5 ) shots ? With my Pro Hunter and Encores, I shoot two rounds at the backstop about Nov 13th, with our regular season starting on the 15th and runs to the 30th. Mine stays loaded the entire time unless I fall in a creek. Our muzz season starts about the 10th of Dec for 14 days, then right into late doe season. Normally I shoot between the seasons long range, then clean the rifle. I start the process a couple days prior to the designated muzz season and it remains loaded. Barrel is just a cute as when new  |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Aug 10, 2014 19:05:53 GMT -5
Windex to clean BH209 fouling?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 21:08:13 GMT -5
I assume you want the ammonia in the windex for neutralizing/cleaning purposes? Gotta get the right variety I suppose.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Aug 10, 2014 22:19:17 GMT -5
Ive never used a water based cleaner for BH209. Regular CF solvents work fine and that is what Western recommends.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 19:19:58 GMT -5
I have used CRC Brake Kleen with good results. Cleans up the residue, evaporates and leaves no smell behind. Kyle
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Post by xpert07 on Dec 31, 2014 9:39:12 GMT -5
I only clean after each range visit. Start with a clean barrel. Shoot 2 foul shots. Shoot my groups ( usually 10 - 15 shots ) 84 weighed grains of BH209 with a 300 Scorpion PT Gold ( 45 cal Rempac) Sub MOA out to 300 yards. Clean when I get home with Windex and Butch's Bore Shine My Question - If going on a hunt , do you shoot and reload , each day ? Also , how long can you go without cleaning , if you have only fired a few ( 2-5 ) shots ? Interesting Yule... I load 85, shooting Dead Center 195 Duplex's, I get super groups at the range also but never have paid much attention to fouling the barrel, plus steering away from water base cleaners. The Rem action cleaner/dryer is basically brake clean as well. My issue with leaving it loaded is dependent on the weather, and keeping the weapon in the garage at night to prevent sweating the barrel. |
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Post by pooldoc on Feb 9, 2015 15:21:36 GMT -5
Since BH 209 became came out, I do all my sighting in, load changes etc starting with a clean rifle, pop 3 primers, (using Federal 209 A now and toying with moving to Winchester 209 to reduce blow back)and never clean anything until I finish. Usually 10 to 12 shots. Do the same when I get to lease. Since all my Knights use bare primer breech plug I use a drill bit to clean all the carbon out of the flame channel. I'm yet to miss and animal on the first shot. Since this issue is getting so much attention lately, I plan to check it out after our deer season ends on the 28th. While hunting I leave gun loaded and in case in my truck. If I have a quick trip back scheduled I pull primer and leave it loaded. Never had a hang or miss fire doing that. Like others, I have personally talked to Bob Parker, who by the way, is one of the nicest guys in the industry, and he advised me to use his Ballistic Extreme and not the Match/Hunter in my Knight .50 cal Disc Extreme. His view was not enough velocity, even with 120 gr of BH 209, to get proper expansion from the bullet. I've followed his advice. A bumped up 45 might get the velocity up enough. Shooting at our relatively small West Texas Deer I'm sure he's right. I plan to do some testing later in the Spring and see what my first shot is doing, since I normally start my sight in process at 25 yds.
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Post by rkrobson on Feb 9, 2015 20:52:55 GMT -5
In 45 caliber sabotless shooting full form ASG 310 grain I clean between shots for best accuracy, very tight fit bullet to barrel. One Hoppes Elite wet patch both sides and two dry patches both sides, am also using Hoppes #9 as per Bestill with same results as Elite. For a fast followup shot with a full formed sized 310, I must size 2 hashs tighter on Swinglock, this allows 2 additional shots to be loaded back to back, but these will be in a 1.5" group. I had same relults with Barnes 300 Original Spire Point. Iam not able to get less than 1.5-2" groups shooting smooth sized Match Hunter bullets, however Parker Ballistic Extreme and Emax with shoot 1" at 2450 fps, always cleaning between shots. Wtih 50 cal shooting 300 Match Hunter in tight sabot, I shoot back to back up to ten shots, that is if there is enough hours in the day to allow for barrel cooling. Blackhorn is the absolute best replica replacement powder I have ever used, its so good that Hodgdon launched a nationwide effort to get it banned in muzzleloading seasons out west, some banned it initially, but have since changed and allowed the use, thank God, Ray
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Post by sgellis on Feb 10, 2015 13:08:30 GMT -5
Ive been shooting blackhorn in 45 sabotless with match Hunter for several years and feel got things very accurate. Im curious to learn more. Like to know what members between shot cleaning procedure is for maximum accuracy? I'm unsure if it would relate to a sabotless 45, but in a sabot 50, I see consistent accuracy without any wiping between shots. Not shooting competition, but shooting hunting loads consistently sub-moa, while running the gun an entire range session, I see no change in accuracy from the Blackhorn 209 fouling that appears to build up to no more than a minimal amount. My breech plug requires no maintenance, so outside of that, any wiping between shots gives me no advantage, other than wasting time and materials. Unsure if different solvents and/or oils would effect fouling build up, but I did change barrel oil on one occasion on a clean barrel, and did notice a slight increase in difficulty to load the first few shots. But after that, it went back to normal. What is consistently working for me now is Birchwood Casey solvent for copper and nitro fouling, the kind too strong to be stored in a plastic bottle and is sold in glass. This cuts through what little is left in my barrel at the end of the day, and I've been using the current version of Rem oil to coat the barrel. Always easy to load a tight fitting sabot, and build up amounts to little with no effect against accuracy. The longest string I've run without wiping the barrel was approximately 30 shots. The last group was still sub-moa. A bore fit bullet may very well be effected differently going from smokeless to BH209, and may very well be effected differently than shooting sabots. At most, I suspect either a clean dry patch, or one lightly damp with a residue free solvent would remove any amount of excessive BH209 residue, if needed, between shots. |
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Post by squeeze on Feb 11, 2015 13:37:38 GMT -5
the barrel is no problem, but it will carbon up the flame channel in the BP pretty quick. a drillbit spun by hand is the best. sometimes even a pilot bit first
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Post by xpert07 on Mar 24, 2015 11:28:38 GMT -5
the barrel is no problem, but it will carbon up the flame channel in the BP pretty quick. a drillbit spun by hand is the best. sometimes even a pilot bit first Def do this people. I ignored that for quite awhile and a needed a pilot hole to guide the pilot hole to move on the the bit I wanted to end up with...lol....Surprised it shot as well as it did!! |
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Post by miketodd58 on Mar 26, 2015 7:04:58 GMT -5
the barrel is no problem, but it will carbon up the flame channel in the BP pretty quick. a drillbit spun by hand is the best. sometimes even a pilot bit first This has been my experience as well. Drill bit for the flame channel. Hoppes or some other smokeless powder cleaner for the barrel. I think the key is to use a clean dry patch for the initial swabbing. BH209 tends to be a bit flaky . If you run a wet patch down there the flakes tend to get all messy and you have a real mess on your hands. Dry patch first then a wet patch followed by a dry patch and your all done. |
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Post by bestill on Mar 26, 2015 8:30:19 GMT -5
Alot of good info posted.
How bout sabotless smooth form ballistic extreme between shot routine shooting blackhorn for precision accuracy?
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