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Post by nmhunter on May 11, 2014 18:27:04 GMT -5
I just moved back to NM and drew and elk tag for ML! I am super excited and I need to get back in the ML game. I haven't seen a thread here, but I want to get your opinion on the new Remington 700 ultimate. I am specifically in the market for a ML that shoots blackthorn 209 for hunting in NM. I need a long distance rifle that is lightweight for the steep mountains in Northern, NM. www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/press-releases/2014/firearms/remington%20introduces%20model%20700%20ultimate%20muzzleloader.aspxI am looking at a custom build with a 700 action with a 45 barrel, but I just saw the new Remington 700 ultimate. I really like the ability to go back and forth to smokeless and I have a feeling this will override any advantages of the quicker burn from the ultimate with the large magnum primer. I am also curious how heavy the ultimates will be. Comments please! Thank you in advance, NM Hunter |
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Post by nmhunter on May 11, 2014 18:43:58 GMT -5
I just read the ultimate ML's webpage. It looks like Remington bought their patent or at least leased it. Ultimate also says they are only making them in 50 caliber, which Remington does not specify. I do like the fast burn, but I am wondering how much kick a 200 grain triple seven ML is going to give to get up to 2,400 for a 250 grain bullet.
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Post by encore50a on May 11, 2014 18:52:54 GMT -5
The new Remington Ultimate will shoot pellets or 150grs VOLUME of BH209. I think the rifle is going to be about 8.5#
I shot my Ultimate Firearms rifle today with both 3 - T7M pellets and 100grs WEIGHT of BH. The heavy rifle and brake helps. The brake is claimed to reduce 30% of the recoil. I'm old and out of shape and handled 20 rounds today. |
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Post by nmhunter on May 11, 2014 19:01:20 GMT -5
Couple of questions.
How much does your ultimate weigh?
Also, how much does 100 grains weight of BH convert to volume of BH?
What grain of bullet where you shooting?
Thank you for your input! I sincerely appreciate it.
NMHunter
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Post by bestill on May 11, 2014 21:26:06 GMT -5
Most ive seen weight appx9.5 lbs. All are 50 cal and typically shoot300 grain sabot load . Blackhorn has conversion ratio of 7 grain weight to 10 volume . So 100 by weight is 142 by volume. Save some money and have a Remington action assembled with.458 barrel and go sabotless 45 .
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Post by nmhunter on May 11, 2014 21:54:48 GMT -5
From the research I have done, it looks like the drop from a 50 caliber to a 45 caliber will increase the fps by about 100 fps using a 300 grain bullet. I was going to try and stick to 275 or a 300 grain bullet for elk. So if I can get all the blackhorn powder to burn out before the end of the barrel, I should be pushing 2,200 fps with 120 grain by volume load out of a 45 barrel with a 300 grain bullet, plus a much flatter shooting bullet. It also looks like you pick up about 200 foot pounds in velocity from a 45 over a 50. Does this sound about right?
It looks like the advantage of the ultimate would be the ability to burn the powder faster with the magnum primer and use it all vs. going out the end of the barrel. With the muzzle break it sounds like the ultimate can handle the extra recoil or 150 grains of BH and still burn all the powder.
Both have their advantages, but I am not sure I am doing the ballistic calculations right for the 45 caliber with a 300 grain bullet. Does anyone know how much the 120 volume blackhorn will push with a 45 caliber with a 300 grain bullet. Also, does anyone have any idea how long of a barrel I will need to burn 120 grains of BH?
It also looks like the ultimate is made in a 45 caliber as well. Wonder what kind of barrel they are using and how it compares to the smokeless barrels you guys are using.
A lot to think about here...
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 3:49:27 GMT -5
I don't think burning all the powder will be any problem with either gun, .45 cal definitely has the advantage sabotless both in speed and accuracy. remember that the remmy will be using a magnum LRP in a cut down case which may not be legal in some places..
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Post by bestill on May 12, 2014 6:31:31 GMT -5
Your calculations are close. And burning powder with209 is no problem. IMO you need22" useable barrel so take 2" off for breech and 3" for powder column so start with27" barrel. Muzzlebreak is a pain to load. Id recommend a 9.5 lb gun to help recoil. And if really want quality gun send the money for ultimate to hillbill and you will be happy man. Also ultimate only50 cal and they don't state all facts on there web site
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Post by encore50a on May 12, 2014 6:58:58 GMT -5
Couple of questions. How much does your ultimate weigh? Also, how much does 100 grains weight of BH convert to volume of BH? What grain of bullet where you shooting? Thank you for your input! I sincerely appreciate it. NMHunter bestill is correct with the Ultimate Firearms rifle but, not all. The BP Xpress, the rifle I have, does weigh 9.5# but, the Ultimate Firearms Carbon wrapped barrel is significantly lighter and weighs lighter than my Pro Hunter. Ken Johnston handed me one to look over a couple weeks ago while I was visiting. Ken told me it takes him six hours to wrap a barrel properly. Beautiful rifle!
BH conversion: 100 (w) / .7 = 142.85 (v) .......... The Ultimate Firearms rifle is capable of 150grs VOLUME, that converted to weight is: 150 (v) * .7 = 105 (w)
While talking with Bob Parker, they have three (3) Ultimate Firearms rifles. Bob says he shoots 160grs VOLUME of BH from is rifle, which he states he can hold 2" groups at 400yds with. Bob told me any more than 160grs volume and you were wasting your time and money. Bob also told me that with the Ultimates, the MH bullets were the most accurate for target but, DO NOT use them for hunting, as they need much more velocity for expansion. He told me to use the BE's for hunting, which is what he does.
So far I've shot mostly the 300gr bullets, the "whitetail" (SST I believe), the Parker BE's and also a few Parker 275 BE's. I've yet to shoot them but, I'm told that the 290gr Barnes shoots very well but not with the supplied sabots. I've shot the Barnes 250gr TMZ with 75grs WEIGHT of BH (107grs Volume) at just 100yds and they shot excellent too.
I believe the NEW Remington Ultimate will have the Lothar Walther barrel, just not the match barrel. That ignition system works very well.......
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Post by nmhunter on May 12, 2014 10:52:45 GMT -5
Very good info. Thank you all for your input. Any other thoughts are appreciated. I am leaning towards one of hillbills builds as the ability to shoot smokeless on a traditional rifle hunt is very appealing. With that being said a shorter barrel on the Remington with the quicker burning cartridge would be very attractive in a 45 caliber for the mountain hunts/stalking here in NM. The real issue would be the recoil with 150 grains by volume of bh in a light mountain rifle. I can only imagine what it would be like without the break. It is amazing how far this sport has evolved over the past couple of years.
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Post by bestill on May 12, 2014 20:26:23 GMT -5
Ive used 12 oz graco recoil damper installed in butt stock of a cva apex conversion that weights 9lbs with140 blackhorn and recoil similar to 12 guage slug
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Post by sparkman on May 13, 2014 7:36:26 GMT -5
Encore50
This is the first I have seen reference
to the RemUltimate having a Lothar Walther barrel, just curious where intel came from.
Thanks
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Post by encore50a on May 13, 2014 11:08:12 GMT -5
Encore50 This is the first I have seen reference to the RemUltimate having a Lothar Walther barrel, just curious where intel came from. Thanks Its been highly rumored from numerous in the industry. It leads me to "believe" it will have the barrel but, facts haven't been presented as yet. FYI....I've been proven wrong more than once, just ask the wife........ |
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Post by randywakeman on Jul 30, 2014 23:01:44 GMT -5
I just moved back to NM and drew and elk tag for ML! I am super excited and I need to get back in the ML game. I haven't seen a thread here, but I want to get your opinion on the new Remington 700 ultimate. I am specifically in the market for a ML that shoots blackthorn 209 for hunting in NM. I need a long distance rifle that is lightweight for the steep mountains in Northern, NM. www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/press-releases/2014/firearms/remington%20introduces%20model%20700%20ultimate%20muzzleloader.aspxI am looking at a custom build with a 700 action with a 45 barrel, but I just saw the new Remington 700 ultimate. I really like the ability to go back and forth to smokeless and I have a feeling this will override any advantages of the quicker burn from the ultimate with the large magnum primer. I am also curious how heavy the ultimates will be. Comments please! Thank you in advance, NM Hunter A recent video clip is here: . Unscoped, my laminate version is 8-3/4 lbs. The barrel is made by Remington, off of their hammer-forging machine. Ignition with Blackhorn 209 is instant. |
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Post by encore50a on Jul 31, 2014 8:06:59 GMT -5
I don't believe the Remington Ultimate will be for everyone, just as the Ultimate Firearms rifle isn't for everyone. There are additional steps that many may not have the patience for. Some will be discouraged with having to buy the cases to prime, others will find that the cases they have, may only take one or two re-primes before needing replacement.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jul 31, 2014 8:26:01 GMT -5
IMO one of the worst selling point is that its a form 4473 so internet sales will be worse or very limited. Otherwise i am warming up to it. I would like to see how well it shoots some heavier bullets like the 325gr FTX or Speer 458s.
Like it or not, Remington stepped up to the plate with a heavy hitter on a proven platform.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 13:48:48 GMT -5
3 years ago ...I would have jumped all over the first one that I could put my hands....Now ,I know there's much more capable guns out there and .50 cal saboted has its limits to begin with no matter what gun it's shot out of imo......
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Post by encore50a on Jul 31, 2014 14:19:23 GMT -5
3 years ago ...I would have jumped all over the first one that I could put my hands....Now ,I know there's much more capable guns out there and .50 cal saboted has its limits to begin with no matter what gun it's shot out of imo...... A saboted .50 capable of 300yd MOA is more than most hunters will ever need. Most in the general population of hunters, get their muzz out after the regular firearm season, with many of those doing so only to extend their season. They fire a half dozen round and proclaim: "She's on!" and go from there. Most of those same hunters will never shoot beyond 100yds, or are even capable. On the other hand, there are muzz hunters that use it as their primary firearm and shoot many more rounds and at longer ranges. These hunters like the thought of a production rifle and longer ranges, along with something out of the norm. This is probably the group of shooters Remington is trying to target (no pun intended). I've said it all along, its not a rifle for everyone.
I'm pretty satisfied with its big brother so far. The ignition system works as advertised. I also enjoy the "extra work" involved at the loading bench and I don't have to watch re-runs on TV.
If the Remington Ultimate will do this at 400yds with pellets, there'll be a few happy shooters........ (.50 saboted)
If it'll do this at 400yds with BH209, there'll be a lot of happy shooters. (.50 saboted)
Not everybody can shoot a group at 400yds the size of a dime, no matter what rifle or propellant they shoot. I'm actually looking forward to some of the first reports posted by hunters (not writers).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 16:41:32 GMT -5
Nice shooting Man...The sabotless game has come on strong in the last year so that's what direction I'm going in....
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Post by encore50a on Jul 31, 2014 17:18:58 GMT -5
Nice shooting Man...The sabotless game has come on strong in the last year so that's what direction I'm going in.... Thank you.
I almost went with a smokeless build and still have two quotes from builders on this forum. I just chose a different path when I bought the Ultimate. Maybe it was the adventure of trying to make a "smoker" shoot long range, heck who knows. Its a whole new adventure I can assure of that. However I'm having fun and that's what I believe its all about.
I'm sure some will purchase the Rem Ultimate and be unhappy. Most likely because of the extra steps required. However for those who accept the change, I hope it works excellent for them and Remington does well with the rifle.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 17:49:53 GMT -5
When I'm smoking I shoot my factory .45 700ml's and and my omega .50....I already had a ss700ml that was collecting dust so after talking with HillBill about it The choice to build was an easy one....Finding the right stock was the hard part...the third one I bought was the one that I went with,lol.....
Remington is trying to put out a quality product here ....it will be interesting to see how it works out for them......
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Post by nmhunter on Aug 9, 2014 16:29:47 GMT -5
After much research, I chose to go with one of Hillbill's builds with a 45 barrel and free form bullets. I plan to use it for both smokeless and BH 209 loads. It sounds like the sweet spot should be around 140 grains by volume of BH 209 with a 300 grain MH or 310 APB. I assume I will be hitting around 2,400 feet per second with the BH and 2,900 with a smokeless load. Don't try the BH 209 load without knowing your ML as it will destroy a "non-smokeless" barrel. I hope to get out to the 400 yard range with BH and a good scope. Smokeless will be a different story.
It should be here on Monday. Totally different class of ML with the ability to go smokeless and black powder. This will allow the option to use smokeless powder during a typical rifle hunt. I do like the sport of hunting with an ML. I will post more pics when I receive it. The final weight with scope came in at 10 lbs 2 ounces - more than reasonable to go hunting with and it should be manageable with the break. Bill was an absolute pleasure to work with through the entire process. I highly recommend his services if you are lucky enough to get him to do work for you. I believe this will be one of his last commissioned builds from what he told me. His final product is priced reasonably and it looks like an amazing piece of art. If it shoots half as good as it looks, I will be one happy hunter this season!
With that being said, I am still thinking about a Remington ultimate for CO and UT with the 50 caliber. With open sites, it is probably overkill but can one have to many ML's?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 20:14:50 GMT -5
NO....there is no such of a thing,lol... |
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Post by randywakeman on Aug 14, 2014 7:36:41 GMT -5
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Post by encore50a on Aug 14, 2014 9:04:30 GMT -5
Well Remington has some great engineers, who used a slightly different system but.......
The Remington 700 Ultimate is the better gun, as it fixes the design flaws of the Michigan Ultimate that are breechplug and primed brass related. The Michigan Ultimate uses large rifle primers in a large pistol parent case (45 Winchester Magnum). Naturally, large rifle primers that are significantly thicker than pistol primers don't seat properly, and repriming is a pain. I've reprimed 350 .45 WM cases and have NOT had a single issue with one of them not seating properly.
Remington recommends repriming their brass 5 times, although they have gone up to 12 reprimes.
The Remington brass, based on the .308 case, has a machined chamfer, for a better seal than just attempting to rely on a stamped flash hole, which was found sometimes not to seal at all in Remington testing. Depending on how tight the cases fit on the breech plug and/or the compression by the bolt, it has yet to get into the hands of a number of shooters. A breech plug in a production rifle a mere .002" shorter than another rifle, will affect the number of reprimes a shooter will end up getting before it starts blowing back.
The Remington breechplug is made from 416 stainless hardened to 58 HRC max, a harder and stronger breechplug than the soft 300 series “Michigan Ultimate” plug. The Remington breechplug is harder, stronger, and does not have the erosion problems of the “Michigan Ultimate” plug.
So, to sum up, yes: better brass, a better sealing system, brass that is designed for large rifle primers, brass that can be reprimed better and more often, and a harder, stronger breechplug with a fine thread with a better flash hole angle all combine to make the Remington 700 Ultimate breeching system far superior to its predecessor The RU hasn't made it into very many hands as yet. Time will tell how long the RU breech plug will last shooting BH209. The erosion problems with the Michigan Ultimate have been very minimal and I believe it has been around 30 for the entire number of rifles produced. However, there have been three (3) replaced lately, primarily cause, shooting BH209. When the cases are reprimed after being compressed by the bolt onto the nipple enough times, yet to be determined by each RU individual rifle, it will allow blowback, which over time will gas cut that nipple.
Regardless, I hope Remington has it worked out as well you suggest. Once a couple thousand rifles make it into the hands of shooters and they get 400 or 500 rounds through them, I hope they post their results on the various forums.
As much as some writers have IMO from the writings I've read, have literally done nothing more than bash the best they can the "Michigan Ultimate", let us not forget............ Remington is betting their entire reputation and the farm for the ability to produce a quality muzzleloader, again, based solely from this Michigan Ultimate designed ignition system. If the Michigan Ultimate is such a bad rifle, why is Remington betting the farm on the similar system?
So far all I've been able to find in targets or video, have been just 100yd targets, which are no better than a production muzzleloader of other manufacturers provide. Although its stated that the rifle is 300yd capable, no one has produced a single target shot at 300yds. If someone has, I haven't seen it yet nor, as anyone else to my knowledge.
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Post by randywakeman on Aug 16, 2014 10:52:47 GMT -5
The Remington's barrel is a Remington barrel, hammer-forged in Ilion, NY.
The Parker Match Hunters have a .028 in. jacket, certainly a tougher bullet than the pistol bullet genre, but is has a thinner jacket than a Barnes Original, for example, that has an even thicker .032 in. jacket . . . yet is superb whitetail medicine.
Of course the Parker Match Hunter is an excellent hunting bullet and has been used for one-shot kills out to 715 yards, with obviously a far lower impact velocity than at typical hunting ranges.
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Post by rambler on Aug 16, 2014 11:37:07 GMT -5
Can the Remington 700 ultimate shoot smokeless gunpowder??
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Post by encore50a on Aug 16, 2014 12:45:18 GMT -5
Can the Remington 700 ultimate shoot smokeless gunpowder?? No.
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Post by rambler on Aug 16, 2014 14:20:13 GMT -5
Hmmmmm I guess it's not the ultimate  |
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Post by edwardamason on Aug 16, 2014 18:29:09 GMT -5
I just moved back to NM and drew and elk tag for ML! I am super excited and I need to get back in the ML game. I haven't seen a thread here, but I want to get your opinion on the new Remington 700 ultimate. I am specifically in the market for a ML that shoots blackthorn 209 for hunting in NM. I need a long distance rifle that is lightweight for the steep mountains in Northern, NM. www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/press-releases/2014/firearms/remington%20introduces%20model%20700%20ultimate%20muzzleloader.aspxI am looking at a custom build with a 700 action with a 45 barrel, but I just saw the new Remington 700 ultimate. I really like the ability to go back and forth to smokeless and I have a feeling this will override any advantages of the quicker burn from the ultimate with the large magnum primer. I am also curious how heavy the ultimates will be. Comments please! Thank you in advance, NM Hunter A recent video clip is here: . Unscoped, my laminate version is 8-3/4 lbs. The barrel is made by Remington, off of their hammer-forging machine. Ignition with Blackhorn 209 is instant. Hillarious You bash Tupperware break open run of the mill MZ in one of reports like they are dogs yet you horizontally string your first target horribly and make excuses for a fouling shot then your next target you throw a third shot about 2 inches outside the group. Either you or that muzzleloader can't shoot worth a dime. Jury still out on that. There are a heck of a lot of CVA Tupperware $200 doll are rifles that can out shoot that. Crosswind or no crosswind. And we both know a crosswind has little to no effect on these bullets at that range. |
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