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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 20:44:38 GMT -5
Ok guys I said once I had a switch plug rem 700ml I would try it. I had some extra time late this afternoon so I pushed a 158gr .358 bullet in a pr 35-45 sabot down to my breech plug( with no vent today) and fired a primer only. The first try was a fed 209a and WOW was I surprised!! The rifle actually kicked like a 22lr, now this is a 11.5 pound rifle and I felt the bullet leave the barrel and watched it tumble across the range 50 yards down. So with a smile I grab a cardboard box and slap it at 25 yards and fired a 3 shot group haha it wasn't great but it was there nonetheless. So a 209 will kick around 180 total weight out somewhere near 250fps I'd guess.
Back to the testing at hand, I put the 25acp plug in and tried the load with small rifle magnums. It pushed the load up the barrel .95". Tried a large rifle magnum and it only displaced it 1.1". Not sure any of this was worth it but I had said I would do it and I wanted to see the results anyhow. Maybe I should try some loads with powder next outing? Might be the first fool here to fire a primer only, measurable group though!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 20:55:13 GMT -5
Haha. Great stuff. Thanks for the comparison.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 19, 2014 20:56:32 GMT -5
Maybe some winter indoor shooting in the garage .... Good ole fashioned. Parlor shooting. For me the good ole .209 is still easily obtained ...and works just fine for me....and way less of a hassle .
Drop
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 21:50:03 GMT -5
Great test! I love it!  |
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 19, 2014 22:01:10 GMT -5
You just invented a new game for the Kentucky Shoot-off. One guy wearing only safety glasses (cup optional) will run the Turkey Gauntlet by running in front of 12 shooters at 20 yards. Wait, I just heard my Dad roll over in his grave. His number one rule was "don't aim at anything you don't intend to shoot". Or was it "kill". Great test.
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 19, 2014 22:22:56 GMT -5
Now you should do a "which is hotter" test. First shoot a 209 primer with the palm of your left hand over the barrel. Then do your right palm with a large rifle primer. Have the doctor take a close-up picture of both palms then submit them to the board for judgment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2014 8:06:55 GMT -5
I tried that with a BB gun when I was younger so experience tells me it's your turn to try!
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Post by edge on Apr 20, 2014 8:13:27 GMT -5
Are you shooting at him or kicking him...either way, like my football coach always said... wear a cup if you want to have kids  edge. |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 24, 2014 12:33:37 GMT -5
One of the reasons Cecil offers his adapter kits/plugs is the claim that the 209 has more force than necessary to do the job. This seems to back up at least part of that claim.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 25, 2014 11:36:09 GMT -5
It also proves that a LRM is not stronger then hot 209s.
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Post by rangeball on Apr 25, 2014 12:10:23 GMT -5
It also proves that a LRM is not stronger then hot 209s. That was one thing I could never quite wrap my head around or verify, that a LRMP is hotter but has less force than a hot 209. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:23:43 GMT -5
It also proves that a LRM is not stronger then hot 209s. So with a LRM we need a short flame path with a narrow flame channel to keep the primer pressure at a high enough level to aid in ignition? But on the other end of the spectrum, the 209 isn't nearly as hot, but when you use a large vent hole is ignites all powders very well. With loose or tight bullets. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:47:37 GMT -5
I think there are two ways to ignite fuels. Put it under higher pressure and ignite it with a cooler flame(209), or intensify the heat with less pressure(LRMP). Killing the same bird with two stones. I hope ken will finally put the schooling to us on this one. I know he has it in his head somewhere with all that info.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 26, 2014 8:44:13 GMT -5
If you go back to the basics,,, the primer ignites the powder by
Hot gases
Hot particles
Thermal radiation
Pressure pulse or shock wave
Since we are going thru a vent the thermal radiation and shockwave is limited.
All current primers, unless they are “green”, use the same basic ingredients,
Lead styphnate, primary primer compound, replaced mercury fulminate before WWII except in high heat applications.
Antimony sulfide, extra fuel and serves to increase the sensitivity of the lead styphanate.
Barium nitrate, extra oxidizer for the antimony sulfide and for more gas.
To get more “sparks” they will add metal powder like aluminum or zinc. I was told the main difference between the Federal 209 and 209A is the addition of aluminum which the “A” stands for. Military primers, since they are using the taxpayers money, will use zirconium.
To get more “umph” for a pressure pulse or shockwave they will add another explosive (up to 10%), usually Tetrazene, military primers will use PETN, both of which are pretty much a high class explosive by themselves but we are only talking milligrams. There is like 70 milligrams in 1 grain and I was once told the amount of rimfire primer is less then 20mg wet. The amount in a large rifle primer is around 35mg.
Lead styphnate is like 50% lead, when it ignites you get a vapor of molten globs of lead. It only takes 150-200°C (300-400°F) to ignite most powders. Supposedly the DoD uses over 12 tons of lead per year just in the primer compound for small arms ammo so there is a push to “get the lead out”. You may think the lead styphnate is about like a strike anywhere match but the burn rate is pretty impressive. Here is a demo showing the burn rate with about 20X the amount in a primer.
Now everybody has their own mix or recipe. With the MSDS sheets they have to tell you what’s in it but not the exact amount. To get the industry more “green” by getting the lead out there are lead-free primers currently marketed but performance is somewhat lacking. To make things better for the baby condors the “big three” (ATK/Federal/CCI, Winchester, Remington) all have secured patents in the last few years on primer compounds using red phosphorus in place of the lead styphnate. Used in like caps and the strike anywhere matches, when these will hit the market who knows. However US Navy research has recently came up with another compound, 4,6-dinitro-7-hydroxybenzofuroxan, potassium salt (KDNP), which can replace the lead styphnate directly and is supposedly the greatest thing since sliced bread in the primer world.
How much compound is in a primer? Easy, how much gas does it produce?
#1 producer of lead styphnate in the US, Olin Corporation, East Alton plant. They supply everyone (at least till the Obama EPA shuts them down).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 17:08:15 GMT -5
Holy smokes Rossman!
Thanks for the great info!
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Post by kash913 on Apr 27, 2014 18:26:44 GMT -5
If you go back to the basics,,, the primer ignites the powder by Hot gases Hot particles Thermal radiation Pressure pulse or shock wave Since we are going thru a vent the thermal radiation and shockwave is limited. All current primers, unless they are “green”, use the same basic ingredients, Lead styphnate, primary primer compound, replaced mercury fulminate before WWII except in high heat applications. Antimony sulfide, extra fuel and serves to increase the sensitivity of the lead styphanate. Barium nitrate, extra oxidizer for the antimony sulfide and for more gas. To get more “sparks” they will add metal powder like aluminum or zinc. I was told the main difference between the Federal 209 and 209A is the addition of aluminum which the “A” stands for. Military primers, since they are using the taxpayers money, will use zirconium. To get more “umph” for a pressure pulse or shockwave they will add another explosive (up to 10%), usually Tetrazene, military primers will use PETN, both of which are pretty much a high class explosive by themselves but we are only talking milligrams. There is like 70 milligrams in 1 grain and I was once told the amount of rimfire primer is less then 20mg wet. The amount in a large rifle primer is around 35mg. Lead styphnate is like 50% lead, when it ignites you get a vapor of molten globs of lead. It only takes 150-200°C (300-400°F) to ignite most powders. Supposedly the DoD uses over 12 tons of lead per year just in the primer compound for small arms ammo so there is a push to “get the lead out”. You may think the lead styphnate is about like a strike anywhere match but the burn rate is pretty impressive. Here is a demo showing the burn rate with about 20X the amount in a primer. Now everybody has their own mix or recipe. With the MSDS sheets they have to tell you what’s in it but not the exact amount. To get the industry more “green” by getting the lead out there are lead-free primers currently marketed but performance is somewhat lacking. To make things better for the baby condors the “big three” (ATK/Federal/CCI, Winchester, Remington) all have secured patents in the last few years on primer compounds using red phosphorus in place of the lead styphnate. Used in like caps and the strike anywhere matches, when these will hit the market who knows. However US Navy research has recently came up with another compound, 4,6-dinitro-7-hydroxybenzofuroxan, potassium salt (KDNP), which can replace the lead styphnate directly and is supposedly the greatest thing since sliced bread in the primer world. How much compound is in a primer? Easy, how much gas does it produce? #1 producer of lead styphnate in the US, Olin Corporation, East Alton plant. They supply everyone (at least till the Obama EPA shuts them down). Rossman you are a Rocket Scientist ! WoW I should pay attention in school you lost me at Thermal radiation. Lol |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 18:35:36 GMT -5
My IQ went up 17 points after reading Rossman's post. (Stanford-Binet rating of course) Now I'm sitting at 94 currently. The best part is that Rossman puts it in terms that a guy can understand, and how it's applicable to our guns. Thanks Ken! |
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 27, 2014 22:29:10 GMT -5
My "holy grail" of stuff that goes bang. the Army's TM 9-1300-214. The DoD tried to classify it after 9/11 but it's all over the net. So they just never updated it after 1990. Still a pretty good read, it goes into great details on how the stuff is even made.
There is like 1500-2500 items like detonators or initiators that use a primer in the DoD inventory.
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Post by madcityhoosier on Apr 28, 2014 10:53:23 GMT -5
Thanks to Rossman and his post above, I'm sure that I now am (as if I wasn't already) on the FBI watch list!
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 29, 2014 12:01:46 GMT -5
I want to know if there is such a thing as a rifle primer being hotter even though a 209 creates more pressure.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 29, 2014 18:19:03 GMT -5
Thats the thing, you can juggle the mix around but your talking a low of maybe 1600°K (2400°F)to a high of 2200°K (3500°F)as far as burn temp. Then you can juggle the like barium nitrate to produce more or less gas. There is a lot of variance between brands and even then between lots of the same brand as the heavy reloaders can tell you.
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