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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 21:39:50 GMT -5
PICTURES OF RIG ON PAGE 2, I just didn't want to start a new thread. Hey guys someone mentioned that a 25acp fit in a savage bolt nose. Just wondering if anyone has used this with a savage plug and a remington 700ml in the past. With the hunter bolt nose just a small mod had to be made. This is 100% reversible back to 209 on the bolt nose end. For the plug end I'm thinking PR's variflame savage plug. Here's the mock up Just a small angle cut into the bolt nose
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 21:57:05 GMT -5
I've never tried it. Let us know how it works.
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 8, 2014 22:39:56 GMT -5
I'm looking for a .25acp chamber reamer to do just that!
I believe mountainam did something similar with the .32acp and opened up the flame channel in the case for the maximum amount of flame to get through the breech plug.
The .25acp will fit into the Savage bolt head without any modification.
Myers129, would you happen to know where a reamer can be found for rental?
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Post by speedrackin on Apr 9, 2014 5:36:15 GMT -5
hmmnnn small pistol primer wasn't that discussed .......worked with 777 and pyro loose ...... failed with BH209 with all ur ignition issues with bullet tightness and seating pressure ..... what do ya think .....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 5:56:21 GMT -5
Gonna open it up to large rifle primer. Danno, I purchased a 7mm end mill to cut my breech plug, don't have it in hand yet but it should come in at about .275-.276". I can follow that up with a straight reamer at .278" if needed. I'm hoping a little polish might take care of it. If it is successful I will let you know and you can try it, or I would be willing to cut yours for you.
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Post by speedrackin on Apr 9, 2014 6:12:41 GMT -5
I wanna make sure i under stand this ........ ur going to open up the 25acp to a large rifle primer size ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 6:26:02 GMT -5
Yep you've got the idea. That's what mountainam did with his 32acp, and that is pretty close to what a pr adapter is. The extractor groove on the 25acp is what makes it a possibility with with hunter bolt nose. Pr adapters will take a little more moding.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 9, 2014 7:10:34 GMT -5
I've been brainstorming this exact idea for a while now. I think mod'ing a .25ACP to take a LRM is a viable option in the 700ML.
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Post by speedrackin on Apr 9, 2014 7:12:03 GMT -5
Hmn ........seems like alot of fudgin around ......ya think there's a reason why those pr adapters r #316 stainless ? and not 25acp brass ..........they used to be in one of his other kits and he upgraded to stainless he can be a very opinionated person and has strong feelings about whats good and bad in the muzzle loader world but hes done his home work . Cecil sells them for 10 for $20.00 . U mite think that's expensive ..... but figure in , the lights , the insurance the equipment .......... on and on = over head . And figure in how many he has to make in the first run just to cover the tool up before a profit even starts to show . So in all i think ur sort of spinin ur wheels unless u plan on marketing them and goin into business . And when it comes to the pr plug and smokeless .... mite want to get a chart and measure those threads and see what pressures they will with stand ...... seems like spendin 100s to save pennies....JMO And then theirs the other thing .........u think u mite me infringing on someone else s patent ?? ....... Do u have the proper paper work to manufacture gun parts? Think about it all . Im bettin that this board is watched ....just like employers look at facebook .....social media a great thing for sure ........ but beware JMO in our Democratic/ social government of today especially with the high profile attemtion to gun control this site isnt monitored wheter its muzzle loaders or not . Here in Ny license plate readers which law enforcement uses tell all right down to if u have a pistol permit ..... they no more about u before they even walk up to the car .....
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Post by linebaugh on Apr 9, 2014 7:32:09 GMT -5
I was all over that exact idea about two months ago. Pondered over it and looked for a reamer, (don't exist) was going to make a reamer and then one day it came to me. What am I gaining? 209 is easy, disposable and reliable for my needs.
I will be 100% interested in your results. I can watch my money being spent and the concept come to life vicariously through you. For that I thank you! Its a very easy conversion so it it yields good results it could help many.
As previously stated Cecil had a version of this at one time. I have a buddy that still has a rifle with that system in it. I'm not sure on primer size in his 25acp modules. I do know that he had many ignition problems with his gun which leads me to believe it was small pistol or rifle primers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 8:00:31 GMT -5
Speedrackin, you haven't posted a positive thing in a while? You got cabin fever or just anti-smokeless and noninventive?
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 9, 2014 8:07:38 GMT -5
Hmn ........seems like alot of fudgin around ......ya think there's a reason why those pr adapters r #316 stainless ? and not 25acp brass ..........they used to be in one of his other kits and he upgraded to stainless he can be a very opinionated person and has strong feelings about whats good and bad in the muzzle loader world but hes done his home work . Cecil sells them for 10 for $20.00 . U mite think that's expensive ..... but figure in , the lights , the insurance the equipment .......... on and on = over head . And figure in how many he has to make in the first run just to cover the tool up before a profit even starts to show . So in all i think ur sort of spinin ur wheels unless u plan on marketing them and goin into business . And when it comes to the pr plug and smokeless .... mite want to get a chart and measure those threads and see what pressures they will with stand ...... seems like spendin 100s to save pennies....JMO And then theirs the other thing .........u think u mite me infringing on someone else s patent ?? ....... Do u have the proper paper work to manufacture gun parts? Think about it all . Im bettin that this board is watched ....just like employers look at facebook .....social media a great thing for sure ........ but beware JMO I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure his brass primer carriers were turned to be a 209 replicas for small rifle primers. After that he used .22 Hornet cases. Now he makes them in stainless which I'm sure is a longevity thing. It's not good for business when your products need endless support products. Personally, I like the idea of brass because I feel like it will wear on the bolt less and you could create a headspace mechanism where you have a crush fit which you will not get with steel (without galling). More than anything rifle people are tinkerers. I have done some wheel spinning over the years. Now I do a lot more brainstorming before I jump into something. Either way, it's my dollars and time involved. If somebody, somewhere, had not ever done something nobody else thought was senseless with a muzzleloader you'd still be shooting a smoothbore wheel-lock (probably without sights). I do not study patent law for a living but I don't know if modifying an existing product constitutes violation of patent. I'll have to look into that. (turns out there is an improvement patent one can apply for)
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Post by speedrackin on Apr 9, 2014 8:28:51 GMT -5
Well its like this ...... I've been down all the roads ur goin just not in the smokeless world all Blk Pder substitute . I have one of the most advanced machine shops and machinists in the world at my disposal .In fact the older gentleman in the shop has built his own barrels from scratch in the flitlock world . I just don't have the time to be an experimental scientist . I have learned to be a lot more creative with my finances. There are few people out there that r in business that do all this for u .....Ya its fun to play for sure ...... but id rather be planning western hunts , fishing trips , trailriding my horses thru out the country , and enjoying time with my family , in other words i have a life beyond the smoke pole. Some times it appears to me that all this is just a bad case of deep pockets .
Im just tryin to be realistic to all the possible outcomes ...... could be a lot in legal fees and fines to save $20
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 9, 2014 9:47:15 GMT -5
My pockets are not deep. I'm a government employee. I have friends here and there who are talented machinists that help me out. Coincedently, I do save some money but it is mostly a pursuit of knowledge and experience. My time is also very precious to me, as I spend a lot of it gone, so when I am home I do exactly the things I enjoy that I can enjoy locally (since long range planning is not always possible for me) and that includes a lot of gun tinkering and range time.
So, if it works out we can apply for an improvement patent (if necessary) or if it fails chalk it up as R&D and move on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 9:51:21 GMT -5
If someone can show me where I can buy a savage breech plug, trademarked, marked up and accepts 25acp brass I'll gladly buy it. Till then I'll make my own for $11 and call it a day.
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 9, 2014 12:35:20 GMT -5
First of all, without taking up too much space, let me guarantee that you will never pay a penny for any kind of patent or other infringement. Members with the ability to experiment should do so without the chilling effect of the law. Many of us are interested in your testing. Some, like me, have no machining skills and can only cheer from the sidelines.
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Post by hammer on Apr 9, 2014 14:06:40 GMT -5
myers129, Looking at the SAAMI drawings for the 25 automatic it lists the extractor grove diameter at .252-.010, with the large rifle primer pocket being .2085 to .210 it would leave .02175 max and .016 min wall thickness supporting the primer in that area. I don't know if that is enough or not, or if you were already aware of the dimensions. It seems to me that this area may cause problems, but again I don't know. good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 14:40:33 GMT -5
Hammer, thanks for the numbers. I am still in the early stages here and so far nothing is a one way mod. When I get to cutting a BP that will be toast if this is a bust. I will have to measure web thickness and cut the primer pocket in a case to see exactly what I am dealing with. Thanks for the heads up.
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Post by oldsnow on Apr 9, 2014 15:12:25 GMT -5
I had a 25 ACP breach plug for a wile in a H&R-NEF 50 smoke pole. I used CCI 550 small magnum pistol primers and they would light any power I put down the barrel. Why go to all the trouble of making it bigger? ??
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 9, 2014 16:20:47 GMT -5
Oldsnow,
Out of curiousity, what powders and charges were you using? I have a spare breechplug for my NULA I might modify as well. I have shot .308Win and 7mm-08IMP 40° using BR brass with small rifle and small rifle magnum primers (and that would be the route I would go in a muzzleloader). There is not a difference except cup thickness/hardness between pistol and rifle primers.
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 9, 2014 17:46:49 GMT -5
For what it's worth, my thoughts have been to:
Open up the flash holes in .25acp cases just to the point the anvil will not fall through.
Use small rifle magnum primers.
Use "Edge style" modified breech plugs. Mine are opened up to the threads. I've been doing them that way ever since Edge first posted the modification years ago. This really cuts down the length of the path the primer flame has to travel to the powder.
Use a duplex with one of the shotgun or pistol powders for ignition of the main charge.
Of course, this all depends on finding a way to "chamber" the breech plug to accept the .25acp!
And as far as patent infringement.....if Savage was worried about that, several people would already have been sued long ago!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 21:11:57 GMT -5
I took another look at the 25acp cases tonight. The extraction recess will be pretty thin once it's converted to large primer so that might be a longevity issue, but it might not. The case web is thicker than I would have given it credit for so the recess doesn't really come into play for the cases ability to contain pressure. Here is where the web lays out on these pmc cases.
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Post by mk111 on Apr 10, 2014 0:33:18 GMT -5
If I get it correctly the 25ACP case OD at the base is .278. A "K" drill size is .2795 that's only .0015 over size. Just use a "K" drill from the chamber ream and the case will expand that 1.5 thousands on the 1st firing. The chamber depth can be set by trial and error till it's correct. That's how I would handle it. Or am I not thinking this through. Been wildcatting CF cases for 25 yrs.
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Post by dave d. on Apr 10, 2014 6:30:33 GMT -5
Myers when me and al played around with brass Lrm Variflame adapters the lip did not have enough meat around the primer and if it sealed well the lip would rip off. Good luck with your adventure look forward to hear if it works.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 7:04:15 GMT -5
Mk111, I have thought of this also. I think it would be a simple fix and work good enough. The slight chamfer of the drill bit might even centralized the primers intensity some. DaveD, I remember reading about that experience. I guess I'm hoping that the pistol brass will bounce back and extraction won't put any strain on the case. I will report back either way.
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Post by darrel on Apr 10, 2014 7:49:08 GMT -5
For what it's worth, my thoughts have been to: Open up the flash holes in .25acp cases just to the point the anvil will not fall through. Use small rifle magnum primers. +1 This is what I did in an encore smoker with the 25 acp cases to light off some Blackhorn 209. Worked fine! Darrel
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 8:40:14 GMT -5
I will try that in my testing also. Thanks for the heads up.
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Post by Alabama on Apr 10, 2014 14:14:54 GMT -5
When I came to this camp 6 months ago there was one thought. Building quality SML's. now it appears that there is two camps of thought the experimenters and the ones trying to make a living selling their goods. As far as patent infringement, it the patent holder has an issue, let him pay for the attorney, bring the issue to the front. I highly doubt thAt will happen. The patent infringement is a moot subject as far as I'm concerned. All these guns are experimental and should be treated as such.
I praise all who have sacrificed time and money to make these guns a safe reality. My hats off!
Every piece is an infringement on someone's idea. Kinda like the mouse trap. Who knows when the best one will be produced.
Some people here have decided to bash other ideas and if I just came to this board, as I did 6 months ago, today I would find it difficult to invest money in anyone's ideas.
The way I see it this boards sole purpose is to bring ideas together for the enjoyment of all. Right or wrong. It's all experimental!
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Post by mountainam on Apr 10, 2014 17:02:41 GMT -5
When I first came to this site dave d. and Al had a big influence on me with their ideas. I saw that PR Bullet was using cut off .22 Hornet casing and THEN switched to .25ACP's. I looked at .25ACP because I found that it actually fit in my Savage 209 bolt nose better than did the 209.
When I did my 700ML bolt nose conversion, I decided on the .32ACP. One reason was because the .25's were just as cumbersome to handle as were the 209's. Also, there were only 2 companies that made .25's as opposed to 4 or 5 that manufactured the .32 ACP's. Actually there was talk and debate for the use of a cut down .30 carb brass and then we saw that the .32ACP was nearly identical without the need for cutting and trimming and they could be opened up to LRP size if necessary.
I use a small rifle primer with no issues-----BUT , I'm not using a Savage plug. There is where your puzzle will need solved. When the Rem/Pac was being designed, the consensus was to use the Savage plug for a standard. How's that availability working out now? I feel it's too long, but probably necessary for the 10 ML's due to the barrel nut. It's not necessary in a 700ML and even less so in a 700CF. To cut the chamber for you casing, I would definitely have a machinist make you a custom reamer as opposed to a drill bit that's "close". I don't notice any of my casings expanding. And I've not had any stick.
So, you may have to do the recessed modification to the nose of the breech plug to get The .25's to consistently Ignite on a Savage style plug. Good Luck with your project!
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Post by Richard on Apr 10, 2014 19:22:30 GMT -5
If you are doing one of these modifications, why worry about the drill size? To do it right, you should have access to a lathe (and know how to use it). That being said, drill it under size and then just open it up with a boring bar? Richard Still have Zero problem with the stock Savage plug in my Rem/Pac with 209's..........but its interesting watching all the "better mouse trap fixes!"
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