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Post by cowhunter on Apr 5, 2014 17:36:12 GMT -5
I was able to get out for an initial test of the Precision Rifle ("PR") rifle primer system, made to fit an Encore or custom rifle with an Encore frame. The system is basically two things -- a stainless breech plug similar to the original Encore plug, and 10 adapters that are shaped like a 209 shotgun primer but are really adapters that hold a rifle primer which is press fit into the back of the adapter. The PR system installs without many problems, however, the adapter has a bigger diameter than the 209 primer, so the Encore extractor bar has to be ground down to fit the adapter. The extractor bar is about $4 so it is not too bad if you change your system back to 209 primers. The plug has a flame channel of about .034. After 8 shots I did not notice any change. First I looked around in all my old junk, including hundreds of bullets I intended to shoot from a .50 caliber barrel using sabots. I found a box of 250 grain Thompson Center "PTX", which were our favorite bullet when we stopped shooting three pellets of 777 under a saboted .451 bullet. I ran three of the PTX through my full-form die and was surprised at the rather deep tracks put on the bullet. I sized them to almost fall down the barrel, but they still needed only light ramrod pressure to go down the barrel. The adapters fit rather loosely into the breech plug, so I was worried about blow-back. I wore safety glasses and used only 60 grains of H4198 powder to start. All primers were Federal Large Magnum Rifle Primers. The first shot went off nicely, but I didn't shoot it over the Chrony. The second and third shots went 2806 and 2817 fps, and both went off despite the loose bullets. I then shot a Luke ASG-ASS (sp?) 310 grain bullet using 70 grains of H4198. It went 2717 fps. I had only two more primers left, so I decided to try shooting them using rather slow powders (which I brought to shoot in a .416 but I forgot the .416 bullets. I shot a loose 300 gr Match Hunter over 95 grains of H4350. It ignited well and shot 2331 fps. I shot another loose 300 grain bullet over 100 grains of H4831sc. It went off and travelled 2146 fps. I was not trying to shoot the proper amounts of these slow powders, but just seeing if they would ignite with the rifle primer system. My conclusion is that the rifle primer system does a great job of igniting powders, since I could not get it shoot even one "poof" shot. There needs to be more testing, but if it shoots as well as I think it is, I would want to just keep this PR system on the gun and scrap the 209 system. One surprising thing is that even though the adapters are "fall out" loose in the breech plug, they come out shiny clean and you don't feel any blow back.  |
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Post by lep999 on Apr 5, 2014 18:09:03 GMT -5
Are the large rifle primer adapters the same size as a 209 primer as far as diameter were it goes into the breech
plug, also does your breech plug need to be recessed ?
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Post by smokelessindian84 on Apr 5, 2014 18:36:47 GMT -5
Are the large rifle primer adapters the same size as a 209 primer as far as diameter were it goes into the breech plug, also does your breech plug need to be recessed ? The PR large rifle primer carrier has a larger diameter than a 209 primer. He is using the PR breech plug with a primer pocket that is made specifically for their LR primer carrier |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 18:45:37 GMT -5
209 primer body is .240" wide.
PR LRM adaptor is .280" wide.
Great info cowhunter!
Do you think there isn't any blowback because of the step at the front of the adaptor.
It doesn't allow any blowby?
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Post by jims on Apr 5, 2014 21:15:17 GMT -5
Those are clean looking primers.
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 5, 2014 21:45:23 GMT -5
Earnhardt. You could be right. I don't understand why. I didn't have the tools to change back to the 209 system to compare, but I think I would have gotten a poof.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 22:28:30 GMT -5
How tight is the lockup of your rifle with these adapters? Seems like they must have it pretty darn tight tolerance to eliminate any soot slipping around the ledge. Looks promising!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 6:37:19 GMT -5
Interesting, those first 250gr loads seem awful fast compared to what TG traced. Suppose that is due to LRP VS 209? Or just different chrono's? Or different gun/barrel lengths?
Wondering if the readings you got were accurate speed wise? Not saying they're not, just wondering what actually made them so much faster than what was in the traces.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 7:44:50 GMT -5
Interesting, those first 250gr loads seem awful fast compared to what TG traced. Suppose that is due to LRP VS 209? Or just different chrono's? Or different gun/barrel lengths? Wondering if the readings you got were accurate speed wise? Not saying they're not, just wondering what actually made them so much faster than what was in the traces. I think TG has a 25" barrel, and cowhunter has a 30" barrel. |
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Post by speedrackin on Apr 6, 2014 8:22:26 GMT -5
Ihave this set up for BH 209...... interesting enough this plug was originally designed to be for 777 and pyro and it works well for bh 209 . Ive been using it since it came out its derived from using a 22 cal case and or the 25acp case Cecil just made his own holder to replace the case ......the LMRP is fine and always will be. Lets see how it holds up after 100 high pressure smokeless loads ...........im just not sure it was designed for smokeless .... it is a copy of the OEM plug from t/c ......careful
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Post by bigiron on Apr 6, 2014 8:34:16 GMT -5
I'll betcha Cecil could could make a Savage BP with a larger dia. hexnut to accept this LRP adaptor. The hexnut on his current Savage plug is not large enough for the LRP adaptor. This would only work for Encore,Apex conversions.....I think.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 8:36:16 GMT -5
I'll betcha Cecil could could make a Savage BP with a larger dia. hexnut to accept this LRP adaptor. The hexnut on his current Savage plug is not large enough for the LRP adaptor. This would only work for Encore,Apex conversions.....I think. Fishhawk just happens to have his paws wrapped around one right now. |
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 6, 2014 9:46:58 GMT -5
I'll betcha Cecil could could make a Savage BP with a larger dia. hexnut to accept this LRP adaptor. The hexnut on his current Savage plug is not large enough for the LRP adaptor. This would only work for Encore,Apex conversions.....I think. The .25acp case that Speedrackin mentioned fits perfectly into the 10MLII bolt head. The case size (diameter) is small enough the current size hex nut would be fine. Questions: Does the small rifle magnum primer have enough fire to reliably ignite the powders we use? Where can one get their hands on a .25acp reamer? |
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Post by speedrackin on Apr 6, 2014 10:08:17 GMT -5
I wouldnt go srp those were used for pyro and 777 which was easier to ignite the lmagnum rp was set up for BH209....which is a little tougher to ignite ...
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Post by moto357 on Apr 6, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5
myself and others have tried the small rifle primers and they do NOT work for smokeless
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 6, 2014 12:43:21 GMT -5
I think a lot of the extra speed is due to the very significant recessing of this plug. I recall long ago testing a recessed savage plug and getting 100 fps more speed--but the 209 primer was getting blown up. Here the primer can handle it. I'm baffled as to why There is no blowback with parts that seem so loose, but I guess you get some pressure when the breech is slammed shut.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 7:52:02 GMT -5
Was reading up on large rifle primers and found this was interesting and possibly useful to others venturing into Rifle priming experiments. Looks like it is cut and dry, Winchester LRMP's are the hottest available.
"Primers affect the pressure generated by the cartridge. Changing from standard to magnum primers may substantially raise the maximum average pressure of the cartridge and indiscriminate changes are not recommended. The A-Square Company conducted pressure tests involving six different primers. These tests used the 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge with a 160 grain Sierra BT bullet and 66.0 grains of H4831 powder and the results were reported in the A-Square reloading manual Any Shot You Want. A-Square used CCI 200 and 250, Federal 215, Remington 9 1/2M, and Winchester WLRM and WLR primers in these tests. They revealed a total spread in pressure of 12,800 psi from the mildest standard (the CCI 200) to the hottest magnum (WLRM) primer tested.
Changing brands but using the same type of primer will also usually result in pressure changes, but ordinarily these will be less drastic. In the A-Square tests the pressure spread between the CCI 200 and the hottest standard primer (the WLR) was 9600 psi. The spread between the mildest magnum primer (the Rem. 9 1/2M) and the hottest magnum primer (WLRM) was 8300 psi. These are significant pressure variations that cannot safely be disregarded.
I don't know how valid it is, but the opinion of many reloaders seems to be that Winchester primers are generally the "hottest," Federal and CCI are the middle brands, and Remington primers are the mildest. That is also my impression, but understand that it is based on rumor and supposition, not fact.
For hunting and general recreational shooting purposes I have not ordinarily seen a significant difference in accuracy attributable to using different brands of primers. However, there are exceptions to this general observation. Some loads do seem to work better with a certain primer. Sometimes the chronographed standard deviation in the velocity of a load is lower with one brand of primer than with another. In such cases I just go with the flow and use whatever primer works best."
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 12, 2014 8:59:18 GMT -5
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 12, 2014 12:57:55 GMT -5
Good info. I'm going to look for Winchester Primers to test.
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 12, 2014 13:08:56 GMT -5
Thanks to a board member whose name rhymes with
Myer12fine, and who just sent me a primer tool for my adapters, my fingers are no longer in danger . Wihere else would you meet someone willing to send you an RCBS priming tool just because he had an extra one laying around. Just the postage was six bucks. It makes you a believer in the essential goodness of muzzleloaders.
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curt
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Post by curt on Apr 12, 2014 16:12:28 GMT -5
Quote "Winchester LRMP's are the hottest available" shows what I know, I thought it was the 215 Federal
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Post by encore50a on Apr 12, 2014 16:51:23 GMT -5
Quote "Winchester LRMP's are the hottest available" shows what I know, I thought it was the 215 Federal I don't know about either being the hottest but, I thought the Federal 215 had the most consistent pressures?
February 2011 edition of Precision Shooting, pages 30-35. Couple of PhD's in physics did the testing.
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Post by Jon on Apr 12, 2014 17:06:25 GMT -5
I was also under the impression that the federal 215 was the way to go? Shows that there is always something to learn. I've got almost 1000 federal 215 so that is what I will use until I have a problem. I only use them for muzzle loaders so I pretty much got enough for quite a while. If I find some Winchester LRMP's I'll pick some up to try. If primer's prove to be as hard to get as powder has been for me I'd better be happy with what I have?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 18:29:36 GMT -5
Not trying to discourage anyone's use of other brand primers. I have always thought that the hottest primer doesn't always equate to the best. I am and always have been a CCI man, don't know why really? I picked up some Winnie's today to try out. I've never had the best of luck with them on my CF loads, but am willing to test all waters. With our SML's I believe the search has been for the hotter 209's for cold weather consistency and perhaps with LRMP's we will like them hot too. Anyone know what brand hankins uses or recommends? Also ran across some cci #34's today and couldn't help myself I had to have 1000.  |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 12, 2014 19:22:55 GMT -5
I also am a CCI guy (BR-2 and BR-4) although I use quite a lot of Fed (GM210, GM215, and 209). Hottest hasn't always been the ticket for me.
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Post by dave d. on Apr 12, 2014 19:28:15 GMT -5
I've tested them all and fed 215's are the best in all the plugs I've tried so it comes down to different applications different primers.
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