Shoulder Problems

[Dave W]

Probably have to go to a 50-60 lb. pull due to shoulder pain. Looking for some feedback from guys/gals shooting in this draw weight range.


Like to know arrow speed, draw weight, and arrow weight so I can run the numbers on a kinetic energy calculator?

Are you getting complete pass throughs? At what distances?

Type of broadhead and arrows?

Thanks in advance, greatly appreciated.

[sourdough44]

More and more States are opening up hunting with crossbows. My buddy just got a medical waiver to use a crossbow, he does have a shoulder problem. Why don't you just do what many are doing now, jump on the crossbow bandwagon?

I don't have one yet, but can see one maybe down the road a bit.

[Dave W]

Sept 15, 2013 14:30:02 GMT -5 sourdough44 said:

More and more States are opening up hunting with crossbows. My buddy just got a medical waiver to use a crossbow, he does have a shoulder problem. Why don't you just do what many are doing now, jump on the crossbow bandwagon?

I don't have one yet, but can see one maybe down the road a bit.

I have one and they are legal in Ohio, just prefer to hunt with a compound, but if I have to, I will go back to using the xbow.

[sw]

Dave,
A 50-60# compound bow has much more power than a 60# recurve which is higher poundage than the normal 50-55# of most recurves(mine is 52#). I have been a lifelong bow hunter(since 1957 and will hunt with my recurve and SZ380 xbow starting again next week). In the 80s I went from 70# to 75-80#, but after considering the physical aspects by 1987 had dropped to 57#. I had previously shot about 8 1/2g/# with my 70-80# and continued to shoot this with my 55-60# bows. I went from Wasp BHs to Spitfires just after their introduction. Still shoot them. Speed is still the same: long range trajectory virtually the same. Penetration, pass-thru's are the same also. Obviously, the energy required to get a pass-thru with good, sharp BHs(even expandibles like SFs) is easily obtained by 55-60# compounds.
Personally, I don't see a disadvantage in shooting 55-60# compounds ; but I do see a # of advantages. Go for it!

[Dave W]

Steve, my biggest concern is getting through the brisket on steep downward angles.

We hunt hilly terrain, our stands are typically 30'+ in the air to stay above eye level of the deer on trails above the stand. Trails below the stand can be closer to 40'+ in some areas, so the shot angle can be very steep with not much room for error, in addition to going through the heaviest part of the rib on entrance and the brisket possibly on exit.

[sw]

Dave,
I still expect getting pass-thru's will still not be a problem. Of course, some broadheads require less energy for penetration. These may be of help.
I have an obsession with shooting "stick" bows, having hunted with them since 1957 and shooting them as a single digit aged kid well before that. I' have no problem getting passthru's with the recurve. However, I discovered xbows back in the 80's and currently have 2 SZ380s(2011,2013) which I love. Since we have no rifle season here and I only get to hunt with a MLer 2-4 days max a year, hunting with a xbow has become my main method of deer/bear hunting. The SZ is small, very fast, very quiet, accurate beyond imagination, and is an effective deer killer. You might consider trying this also.

[Dave W]

Sept 19, 2013 12:32:42 GMT -5 sw said:

Dave,
I still expect getting pass-thru's will still not be a problem. Of course, some broadheads require less energy for penetration. These may be of help.
I have an obsession with shooting "stick" bows, having hunted with them since 1957 and shooting them as a single digit aged kid well before that. I' have no problem getting passthru's with the recurve. However, I discovered xbows back in the 80's and currently have 2 SZ380s(2011,2013) which I love. Since we have no rifle season here and I only get to hunt with a MLer 2-4 days max a year, hunting with a xbow has become my main method of deer/bear hunting. The SZ is small, very fast, very quiet, accurate beyond imagination, and is an effective deer killer. You might consider trying this also.

Currently shooting the G-5 Montec, would like to use it in the future whether it be X-bow or lighter dr. wt. compound.

Son just bought an Elite Hunter, guy at the shop recommended I try it also since the draw cycle is not as harsh as the current setup. Been looking for deals on leftover Stryker 350 & 380's in case I have to go back to the X-bow. Thanks for the info.

[sw]

I absolutely love shooting the SZ 380s. People who have both 350 and original 380 seem to prefer the 350. I've never shot the 350. However, the 2013 SZ380 with it's 1/2" longer string/cables is more like a SZ 365. Maybe it will be the best. The SZs are very gentle and quiet. Love them!

[Harley]

Dave, a few days ago I killed my first deer with my bow set to a reduced draw weight:

Mathews Z7, rated at 60#, set at 50#
Arrows just above minimum grains/pound of draw weight
Montec G-5 CS (carbon steel) 100 grain weight
Exactly 30 yards
Double lung shot, the point pushed between two ribs both on entry and exit
The arrow stuck into the ground about 11" after exiting the deer

I don't know the initial velocity or the total arrow weight, but could check them for you if you need the info.

Last year I shot a crossbow because I was recovering from rotator cuff surgery (SW recommended the Strykezone 380 and that's what I bought; I think it's probably the best x-bow available). I killed four deer with it, but was never excited like I am with the compound. Because I've been warned about re-injuring the shoulder, I lowered the draw weight to 50#. Even though I'm now fully recovered and have strengthened my shoulder, I'm perfectly satisfied with the lighter 50# draw weight, and won't have to worry about pulling it back on a very cold morning.

Harley

[Dave W]

Congrats Lloyd, glad to hear you scored and thanks for the info. Gives me confidence I can trust the setup at a lower poundage to get the job done after reading you and Steve's responses.

Son got his Elite Hunter yesterday, the draw cycle is drastically different than my current bow. I was able to pull and shoot it with nearly zero shoulder discomfort at 60 lbs. My bow on the other hand, also set at 60lbs., severe pain before I can get to full draw. Think I am going to get a 50-60lb. bow, probably a Hunter since I have always liked Elite bows and they are more established now since my last bow purchase.

Lloyd or SW, have you ever shot the Montecs out of the SZ 380?

Thanks for the help guys!

[Harley]

Dave, I've only shot the NAP Spitfire 100's with the Strykezone; like the Montec in the compound, the Spitfire hits exactly the same point of impact as field points and leaves a devastating wound channel.

Lloyd

[dougedwards]

I have had no problems at all killing nice sized deer shooting a 50-60# Bowtech Invasion that I would turn back to 57# for hunting. The only non-pass through that I have experienced lodged in the far side shoulder bone and resulted in a death run of about 30 yards.

Victory Armour Piercing arrows tipped with 100 gr Slick Tricks weighed in at about 390 grains so not an extremely heavy arrow but they were zipping at 285 fps and all of my shots were within 22 yards. I had complete confidence when hunting with this rig.

I have always considered an easy and smooth draw more of an asset than speed or momentum. Today the choices are much different than they were 20 years ago. You can have both.

Doug

[mshm99]

In my opinion, the lower poundage is much easier to tune, less picky about arrow spine, shoots fixed blades with less tendency to plain off and cork screw in wind. I wished I would have dropped the poundage sooner before I tore my cuff on a 72 pound macho bow several years ago. There are a bunch of great cut on contact heads out there. I would not feel at a disadvantage, especially if you own a range finder.

I'm old enough to use a crossbow now, so no looking back.

Good Luck

Mike

[Harley]

The following is in response to Dave's initial request for information on arrow performance at 50# draw weight. The numbers are the result of hand calculations from the relevant formulas, not a computer program.


At 50# draw weight:
Arrow spined at 7.3 gns/inch
6.6 gns/lb including 100 gn broadhead
Front of center (F.O.C.) = 10.9% - 14.32% (depending on calculation method) with 100 gn Montec G-5 CS broadhead
Kinetic energy = 54.81 Ft.lbs
Momentum = .4013 slug ft/s
Initial velocity (Z7 Mathews) = 273 fps

At 60# draw-weight:
Arrow spined at 7.3 gns/inch
5.52 gns/lb including 100 gn broadhead
Front of Center : 10.9% - 14.32%
Kinetic energy = 63.56 ft.lbs
Momentum = .4175 slug ft/s
Initial velocity (Z7 Mathews) = 294 fps

I would appreciate any response to the following:

Given that I had a complete pass-through plus 11" ground penetration on a deer at 30 yards with the bow set at 50#, would you predict satisfactory performance with the same arrow and the same poundage set on the bow at 50 yards?

I think the relevant variable is "momentum" (a penetration reference); as you can see, above, 50# momentum = .4013 slug ft/s. Without a computer program I can't predict momentum at 50 yards and even if I could I wouldn't know from that number whether or not the arrow would satisfactorily penetrate.

Is there a clue above in the relative momentum numbers at 50# and 60#'s? Is the difference between .4175 and .4013 a deal breaker at 50 yards?

Thanks for your comments.

Harley

[Dave W]

I saw a graph for time to target at various distances out to 50yds. The graph assumed a 3% loss in velocity per 10yds. Kind of skeptical the 3% would hold true as the arrow slows.
Think they also had a formula to calculate drag.

[davesonic444]

Dave W, i have had complete pass-through with a old Martin Rage set at 47 lbs. Key is broadside shots and relaxed deer. My bow was shooting 350gr at 270fps. I was using Rocket expandables.I wouldn't hesitate to set-up a 42 lb bow to hunt. I knew a guy who took deer with a 27 lb recurve, i don't condone that, but he did it several times.

[kennacl55]

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