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Post by edge on Apr 15, 2009 9:31:56 GMT -5
A short time ago someone asked: ".....but how are the 250gr bondeds on deer at higher velocities?" We have been discussing terminal ballistics for years. Some like fragmenting bullets and some like full penetration! My feelings are for hunting I want my bullet to end up looking like the picture from the manufacturer! If they show me fragments then I will use it for varmints and if it is relatively flat and retains a reasonable amount of mass then I will use it for deer and other big game animals. Now, if they show me a mushroom and 60% weight retention then that is what I expect ASSUMING that I stay within the manufacturers velocity range!!Since most of us started with the 250 or 300 XTP, let's see what Hornady says it is designed for:  Hornady info on Terminal Ballistics: www.hornady.com/ballistics/terminal.phpThe 250 XTP Hornady wants to impact in the 800 - 1600 fps velocity range, and most non mag pistol bullets are generally in this area too. ( I would put the 250 SST/SW in this category ) This does NOT mean that @ 1601 the bullets will fragment, but as the IMPACT velocity goes up there will be a larger entrance wound, less retained bullet mass, and most of the time reduced penetration. I hunt in open fields where deer may present themselves at over 800 yards, but they may also show up in the woods at 50 feet! Having started with the 250 XTP I wanted to shoot it as fast as possible for open field shots, and often shot these at well over 2600 fps. It seems that the more I prepared for long range the closer my shots became and shot many deer at under 50 yards with these extreme velocities! While I did not lose deer, the massive entrance wounds and reduced penetration made me think that on a less than ideal shot placement I might not be so lucky. By the way, I almost always do a fairly thorough autopsy of the wound channel and can say with certainty that looking at the holes in the hide rarely give a good indication of bullet expansion! Depending on the type of bullet and impact velocity even skinning does not always show what the bullet has done. Exit holes in hide are often no larger than the caliber even when the bullet mushroomed to double its diameter! IMO, what this means for us high velocity shooters is when the range is short you should try to keep the shotline through the animal short, and try to avoid large bones on the way in, as in archery type shots. The major exception to this is I would absolutely take the neck/body junction shot in a heartbeat  Edge. PS here is a link including ( gory ) pictures of an SST shot deer from a few years back: dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=1721 |
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Post by mshm99 on Apr 15, 2009 11:11:11 GMT -5
My experience with 250XTP's and 250SST's mirrors edge. 250SST Entry  250SST Exit  I found pieces of the fragmented bullet pretty much scattered through the entrails. Shot was at 100 yards. I've had a out-right failure of an 250XTP on a deer shot in the shoulder. mshm |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 15, 2009 12:53:34 GMT -5
I've had a out-right failure of an 250XTP on a deer shot in the shoulder. mshm Isn't this the concern? Generally any bullet will work on a perfect broadside shot, but on a less than perfect hit a lessor bullet will fail? I'd rather shoot a bullet that has a high percentage of being good to go when the eventual bad hit takes place. |
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Post by edge on Apr 15, 2009 13:02:57 GMT -5
YIKES!! Let the games begin ;D  |
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 15, 2009 14:15:55 GMT -5
I know that the general concensus is that the easily fragmentable bullet is not a dependable terminal killer launched at higher velocity but I am wondering how many have actually lost a whitetail shooting the 250 SST or XTP?
Doug
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Post by edge on Apr 15, 2009 14:54:46 GMT -5
IMO, very few!
IMO, bullet failure does NOT mean that you don't collect your deer, it only means that the bullet did not react the way you anticipated it would based on information from the manufacturer!
ie: a varmint bullet that pencils through a groundhog is bullet failure.
edge.
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Post by rangeball on Apr 15, 2009 16:17:34 GMT -5
Seems like semantics, and I guess literally you're right, but in my view, a bullet has failed what I wanted it to do if I make a good or otherwise killing shot and fail to kill the deer Hit the deer on the shoulder, if it penetrates and breaks the shoulder(s) vitals will be encountered and the deer is dead. If it frags without penetrating... Why do I feel like I'm taking bait or something |
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 15, 2009 16:37:58 GMT -5
Seems like semantics, and I guess literally you're right, but in my view, a bullet has failed what I wanted it to do if I make a good or otherwise killing shot and fail to kill the deer Hit the deer on the shoulder, if it penetrates and breaks the shoulder(s) vitals will be encountered and the deer is dead. If it frags without penetrating... Why do I feel like I'm taking bait or something What if the bullet hits shoulder and then fragments without penetration to the vitals and the deer still goes down because of a broken shoulder and the shock factor of it all? Would you consider that the bullet failed in that instance? What if the bullet just zips right through the vital area without much expansion and the deer runs off 150 yards before expiring.......Is that considered a good bullet to use? Edge makes a valid point in that unless you know at what range that you are going to be encountering the animal you can't know the perfect pick of bullet. My opinion is that a 300 grain anything (bullet) will bring down a whitetail at almost any range whether it fragments or not. Someone come up with a personal instance to prove me wrong.  Doug |
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Post by edge on Apr 15, 2009 16:50:05 GMT -5
Seems like semantics, and I guess literally you're right, but in my view, a bullet has failed what I wanted it to do if I make a good or otherwise killing shot and fail to kill the deer SNIP If you don't have the deer how do you know what happened? No deer, means hunter error to me. If someone else harvests the animal and you recover fragments then you have your answer, but if he runs off then I messed up. edge. |
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Post by mshm99 on Apr 15, 2009 17:08:51 GMT -5
When I say the 250XTP failed , I'm saying I shot the deer in the shoulder ,it broke the shoulder and did not get into the vitals.I'm saying the bullet came unglued,plain and simple. Fortunately the deer was turned back in my direction and I was able to administer the "Coup de grace". I assure you , the bullet came apart, and this was not a large deer. Anyway I miss the goat.  mshm |
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Post by bigmoose on Apr 15, 2009 18:04:24 GMT -5
The first Moose I shot with a muzzleloader, I was shooting a 300gr TC bonded bullet, The guide called the Moose out of heavy cover, at 8o yards, I wanted to break his shoulder, so he couldn't ran back into the cover, The bullet hit him in the shoulder and blow apart, I mean into tiny pieces. When I put my finger into the bullet hole, it came out covered with flakes of cooper, 44gr of 5744, Lucky the Moose just stood there with his front leg, lifted off the ground, giving me time to reload the shoot him in the boiler room. That is the reason, I will only use all cooper bullets on big animals Barnes TMZ and X bullets
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 15, 2009 18:31:52 GMT -5
I scratch my head. I can't add much. Edge is right IMO.
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Post by ozark on Apr 15, 2009 19:52:26 GMT -5
Most bullets are designed to perform between a minumum and maximum velocity. Push them to fast and they fali and to slow likewise. I think we all know that if we push the velocity up we need to select a bullet that is designed for that velocity. Some hand loaders at a marksmanship unit where I worked developed a load for a .243 that would hit the target at 50 yards but never at 100 yards. They ask me to bring a 100 X spotting scope to see if I could determine where the bullets were going. I sit up and discovered that between the 50 yard range and the 100 yard range the bullet was vaporizing. It looked like a puff of smoke through the scope. They had more velocity than the bullet would take. After decreasing the powder several grains it shot well at all ranges. Just think what that bullet would have done with hitting only the deers skin at any range. If I do my part and the bullet performs well the deer isn't going to present a tough tracking job. Down instantly to making it from 30 to 70 yards is acceptable for me. Beyond that I expect more of myself or my bullet. I know that is what most of you have been saying but saying it made me feel part of the group. LOL
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Post by rexxer on Apr 15, 2009 20:05:34 GMT -5
Doug Quote:My opinion is that a 300 grain anything (bullet) will bring down a whitetail at almost any range whether it fragments or not. Someone come up with a personal instance to prove me wrong. I have to agree Doug but don't tell Wilms I said it!!!  |
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Post by northny on Apr 15, 2009 21:06:04 GMT -5
Nice to see the goats again!
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Post by edge on Apr 15, 2009 21:09:51 GMT -5
SNIP My opinion is that a 300 grain anything (bullet) will bring down a whitetail at almost any range whether it fragments or not. Someone come up with a personal instance to prove me wrong. Doug I can't give you a personal instance to "prove" you wrong, but you are voicing an opinion! In my OPINION, if you try for a steep angling away shot that hits just in front of the rear leg and needs to pass through 1 1/2 feet of intestines, liver, and diaphragm before getting to the lungs and heart and as you wrote "fragments"...then I don't think that it will get the job done in a quick and humane manner. The animal will surely die, but you may not find it. edge. |
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Post by boarhog on Apr 15, 2009 21:43:59 GMT -5
I have seen a quote, attributed to Joyce Hornady, that goes something like this. "At what point in the animal's demise did the bullet fail?" He was making the case that there is not always a need to use Premium bullets on deer sized game, and I agree with him, up to a point.
I stopped using Nosler 150 gr. Ballistic Tips in my 7mm Rem Mag because they performed all too well! Even though they were super accurate (one ragged hole at 100yds, and under 2" at 200), and I never lost one of the 20 + deer I hit with them, I decided to find another bullet to use when I shot a nice buck through both shoulders at about 75 yards. Most of the front half of the deer had to be discarded due to massive tissue damage!
I've had great results with the same bullet in 7mm-08, and with other traditional designs by Hornady, Sierra, and Speer in 257 Roberts, 30-06, and Thuty-thuty. The key is that when impact velocity is 3000 + fps, you can probably expect most any lightly built bullet to fragment. If my shots were normally 150yds and farther, I would likely still be using the Ballistic Tip in 7 Mag. I now use Barnes X, or Nosler Partitions in all my high velocity centerfires.
IMO, the same reasoning applies to Savage ML. The XTP and Remington bullets I have used with great satisfaction at 1400 fps in my Ruger Super Black Hawk, may very well be too frangible at over 2300 fps. Especially for the wild hogs we shoot every year. That is why I am very interested in knowing all I can about bullet performance at Savage speeds. In addition to reports on the PT Gold, I would also like similar info on the Rem 300 gr, the 250 and 325 gr Hornady FTX, and most any other bullets used in the Savage.
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 15, 2009 21:50:11 GMT -5
SNIP My opinion is that a 300 grain anything (bullet) will bring down a whitetail at almost any range whether it fragments or not. Someone come up with a personal instance to prove me wrong.
In my OPINION, if you try for a steep angling away shot that hits just in front of the rear leg and needs to pass through 1 1/2 feet of intestines, liver, and diaphragm before getting to the lungs and heart and as you wrote "fragments"...then I don't think that it will get the job done in a quick and humane manner.The animal will surely die, but you may not find it. edge. [/size]
You could be right on that. But I can't prove that you are right by my own experience. I have a couple of bad hits, one with a 300 gr XTP and one with a 300 gr Barnes Original. Both deer went down within my sight.
The XTP hit in the rump and exited around the groin area with a mushrooming crater the size of my fist. The bullet was not recovered. The BO shot was the angle that you describe and a large chunk was found around the elbow (never leaving the deer's body) of the front leg even though it entered just forward of the rear leg. The deer just rolled down the hill. I don't think that either bullet lost a major portion of it's original weight although without recovery of the XTP I couldn't say for sure.
Remember that nerves can be vitals too. A 300 grain projectile buzzing through at 2400 fps is a shock to the fragile nervous system of a whitetail. Even fragments can do their damage to nerves.
Still waiting for a real life experience of no recovery (what I would consider bullet failure) after a hit with a 300 grain bullet on a whitetail. Charts and theories are one thing but sometimes real life experience is more indicitive of what we might expect
Doug |
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Post by rbinar on Apr 15, 2009 21:51:56 GMT -5
I know that the general concensus is that the easily fragmentable bullet is not a dependable terminal killer launched at higher velocity. Doug That's generally hogwash. What are you shooting at? The game has noting to do with the bullet you choose? If so then we all need at least a 500 grain solid. I can't tell you how many hunters I've talked to lately who have felt true disappointment with premium bullets (the Scirocco for one) when they find out they loose as many if not more deer with them as there old reliable load. but I am wondering how many have actually lost a whitetail shooting the 250 SST or XTP? Doug Ok now something to think about. Most shooters make decisions based on what happened in the last minute rather than in contemplation of experience. I don't know how many tails I've heard of a bullet's complete failure because it fragmented too much right after it was recovered from a dead deer. But I don't think I've ever heard how bad a bullet performed when the deer escaped. I LIKE MY GOAT BAR B QED |
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Post by edge on Apr 15, 2009 23:08:47 GMT -5
SNIP The game has noting to do with the bullet you choose? WHAT? Sometimes I just have to shake my head, fragmenting varmint bullets are......well for varmints. While you will probably kill most whitetails with carefully placed varmint bullets a miscalculation can easily result in a maimed animal!. edge. PS IMO, when a deer runs away the bullet is almost always blamed! The hunter normally proclaims that the bullet did not open or it exploded.....obviously the hunter didn't miss or make a bad shot  |
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Post by rbinar on Apr 15, 2009 23:42:49 GMT -5
SNIP The game has noting to do with the bullet you choose? WHAT? Sometimes I just have to shake my head, fragmenting varmint bullets are......well for varmints. While you will probably kill most whitetails with carefully placed varmint bullets a miscalculation can easily result in a maimed animal!. edge. PS IMO, when a deer runs away the bullet is almost always blamed! The hunter normally proclaims that the bullet did not open or it exploded.....obviously the hunter didn't miss or make a bad shot Amen brothers! Besides the fact you consider a 300 grain 45 caliber soft jacketed bullet a varmint bullet I agree with every word. The bullet is always blamed. That's why so many change from a perfectly good expanding bullet to a $2 a shot unknown. However the idea that the bullet "failed" is reserved for ones that happened to be recovered. The others just don't work. The hunter or accuracy of shot has nothing to do with it. Sometimes I just have to shake my head Ooops! You already did that line. Didn't mean to plagiarize. |
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 16, 2009 5:40:48 GMT -5
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 16, 2009 5:42:58 GMT -5
Did someone say HOGWASH???
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Post by whyohe on Apr 16, 2009 7:24:35 GMT -5
Did someone say HOGWASH??? im gone a few days and they let the goat out ! good graph edge, good info so we can choose a bullet for the speed we want to shoot. i have shot the SST-MLs using 2 T-7 pellets an all 7 deer dead, 6 of them DRT, one went 40 yards. but i wouldnt use them at the speeds i shoot now. though i do boiler room shots IMO i could still use them but questionable, what if i shoot a little far forward and hits heavier mucle tissue. could it "explode on impact even on boiler room and not get enough penatration to vitals?? i use 200grn xtp in my 44 mag lever action @ 1950 FPS at the muzzle and accidently shot the deer in the hind quarter(it was facing away and i thought it was facing me) and it nicked the heart!!! i didnt get to look for bullet it was getting dark. IMO good performance even though i didnt get to recover it. in my 30-06 i use 150 grn nosler ballistc tips and love them,but like boarhog said if you shoot in the shoulder you might as well throw that shoulder away. i shoot boiler room and will wait for that shot so not a problem for me. IMO the SST-ML will "explode" at the speeds i would be using it at but the ballisic tip performed as designed and has fast expansion. i have tried the SST in my 06 and performed like the nosler. the interbond IMO is alittle better but im not willing to try them on a shoulder. |
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Post by Buckrub on Apr 16, 2009 8:30:56 GMT -5
Baaaa Baaa Baaaaa Baaa
(my only cogent comment to these smart guys talking about bullets, sorry. I just know that if I shut up and read and absorb and take heed, I end up shooting a GOOD bullet and kill deer with it).......
Baaa baaa baaaa
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Post by younghunter86 on Apr 16, 2009 8:34:46 GMT -5
Boy, once the goat started rolling it really picked up speed. After reading it all, here are my thoughts, if you launch a bullet faster than it was designed for and it "fails" to meet your expectations, I don't think it should be labeled as bullet failure. It is OPERATOR failure. I only have whitetail experience, but in my opinion with the savage, if you shoot 250 gr bullets look at a bonded offering when shooting light speed. With 300 gr offerings I wouldn't worry about it. Again my thoughts on the whitetail. Anything bigger, and the tuff guy is going to come out. His initials are B.O. and he likes whitetail as well. |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 16, 2009 8:54:55 GMT -5
if you launch a bullet faster than it was designed for and it "fails" to meet your expectations, I don't think it should be labeled as bullet failure. It is OPERATOR failure. 100% agree Again I think it's about playing percentages. &*$% will always happen, but we make our best educated guess ahead of time and do our best to do our part. I shot a doe at about 80 yards last year with the remington accutip slug. Broadside, centerpunched the lungs. She went about 25 yards and laid down. Took forever to die. Upon autopsy the bullet penciled through the first lung and most of the second, and from the look of the carnage exploded on the way out. Remington told me it was a good slug for whitetail, but in my opinion, the load failed what I wanted it to do, so I won't use it again. Shot her sister with a hastings about 20 seconds after shooting her, drt, both lungs were mush soup. I want a bullet that will consistently do what it is designed to do at the speeds I am likely to shoot. All I have control over is playing the odds and making a good shot. In the end, everyone shoots what they are comfortable with, just as it should be. Luckily there's a bunch of choices out there |
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Post by edge on Apr 16, 2009 14:33:59 GMT -5
SNIP However the idea that the bullet "failed" is reserved for ones that happened to be recovered. SNIP. IMO, the analogy to your "failed" bullet is you go to the Cadillac dealer and buy the top of the line model. When you go to pick it up he hands you the keys to a Yugo! Perhaps you would be happy, but I would not.....but hey it will get you where you are going...just not the way you wanted too IMO, I don't see what is wrong with buying a product based on certain expectations. If the product does not measure up to your expectations then it has failed, plain and simple! I suppose that you could hunt dangerous game with a fragmenting bullet, but that would not be my first choice. Use this bullet on an elephant and he might die, but he may kill/maim you or your trackers first.....but as long as he dies it wasn't bullet failure according to RB...Right   Solids behaving badly. . . This sort of abysmal performance from old .458 solids led to the emergence of monometal bullets. From: www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/solids_monometals_01.htmedge. |
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Post by rbinar on Apr 16, 2009 17:24:25 GMT -5
IMO, the analogy to your "failed" bullet is you go to the Cadillac dealer and buy the top of the line model. When you go to pick it up he hands you the keys to a Yugo! Perhaps you would be happy, but I would not.....but hey it will get you where you are going...just not the way you wanted too IMO, I don't see what is wrong with buying a product based on certain expectations. If the product does not measure up to your expectations then it has failed, plain and simple! I suppose that you could hunt dangerous game with a fragmenting bullet, but that would not be my first choice. Use this bullet on an elephant and he might die, but he may kill/maim you or your trackers first.....but as long as he dies it wasn't bullet failure according to RB...Right Solids behaving badly. . . This sort of abysmal performance from old .458 solids led to the emergence of monometal bullets. edge. Again we agree 100% if you buy a product and shoot it a deer and it fails to do as expected it's a failure. That's especially true when you pay three times as much as it worth and the company promise it to be literally magic in results. But it drilled a hole straight the deer and it ran a mile anyway. And I also think you are more than correct on those pictures of elephant bullets. I mean bullet performance there means the hunter does not die, whatever the effect on game: better to loose a trophy than your head. And I think the bullets you describe are almost perfect: on elephant, but they're junk on deer. "I suppose you could hunt" deer with a solid "but it would not be my first choice" or second. By the way I've owned six Caddies. I remember in the 70s GM used a basic Chevy and tried to paint the pig up to look like a princess. They still priced it like a Caddy but it worked like a heap. So do elephant bullets on deer. |
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Post by edge on Apr 16, 2009 17:29:02 GMT -5
We agree 100% edge. |
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