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Post by tcmech on Apr 12, 2009 16:48:31 GMT -5
At church this morning the message was kind of disturbing. The pastor played a video from a guy named Penn who is an avowed atheist.
Mr. Penn (of Penn and something magician fame) was speaking how he was approached by a man who complimented him on a show he did. The man was polite, rational, well spoken, and Christian. He gave Mr. Penn a bible, which Mr. Penn did not believe in, but this is not the point.
As I sat and watched the video of Mr. Penn speaking, he stated that if you do believe in God, and if you are saved, how much do you have to hate someone not to tell them the good news. He said if you were about to be run down by a truck he would tell you, if need be tackle you to move you out of harms way. He also said that if you as a Christian are right, it is even more important that you speak to people to spread the word.
The real question, the true point of this post. "How much do you have to hate someone, not to try to save them?"
I have been reflecting on this question all day and think it is time for me to make a change in my life.
I hope I made a point instead of just rambling like I sometimes do.
Craig
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 12, 2009 20:01:05 GMT -5
I believe it was Mahatma Gandhi that said "This Jesus I like but Christians not so much." That is paraphrasing. Here is the direct quote:
"The message of Jesus as I understand it," said Gandhi, "is contained in the Sermon on the Mount unadulterated and taken as a whole... If then I had to face only the Sermon on the Mount and my own interpretation of it, I should not hesitate to say, 'Oh, yes, I am a Christian.' But negatively I can tell you that in my humble opinion, what passes as Christianity is a negation of the Sermon on the Mount... I am speaking of the Christian belief, of Christianity as it is understood in the west."
There is a man who pastors some churches in California named Edwin McManus who has been featured on many of the Christian television stations lately because of his different view on Christians and Christianity. The view is basically that the unbeliever sees Christianity as rather self serving and egotistical because it seems to the unbeliever that all a man has to do is accept the heroic acts of Jesus the Christ and this same man is able to receive freedom from guilt and inherit eternal life in heaven without being a hero at all himself, or even attempt to be. McManus also implies that ALL Christians have a destiny that is laid out by God for them to follow but that Satan has stifled that destiny by supplanting apathy and fear within the heart of the Christian.
The Bible according to the New Testament makes it clear that we, as the body of believers, are a royal priesthood. We all have a responsibility to follow God's will for our lives. The question is......what is that will?? In 1 Peter we read that it is God's will that "none should perish but that all should come to repentance". Do we have any part in that process or do we just accept our salvation and leave the rest to God?
I work with a group that does street evangelism according to structure of "The Way of the Master" as related by Kirk Cameron and Ron Name. The first question that I will ask these individuals who I have stopped on the street is "Do you feel that you are a good person?"
99 out of 100 will respond quickly with YES!
Without getting into the whole process I have found that the prevailing attitude of the masses isn't atheistic at all but is spiritual. Most believe in spiritual things and most believe that there is a God (to my surprise). However the God that is being perceived is a big teddy bear in the sky who is very accepting of man's debauchery and is so full of love that He can't wait to grant his mercy to the depraved. If this is truly the perception that most people have of God, then what is the responsibility of the redeemed Child of God to do about that?
Good questions to kick around. Hope we get some response.
Doug
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Post by midohhntr on Apr 13, 2009 6:55:28 GMT -5
We are to" preach the word", be ready in season and out of season. Jesus, before He was lifted up to heaven commands us to "go into all the world and spread the good news".
I work in a factory that for the most part, guys and gals believe in God, but some don't and could care less. I will tell you the world watches us, they expect more from us. And sometimes I think the world likes to see how many mistakes we make. I for one quit living to the worlds standards, their is only One that's perfect and He sits at the right hand of God the Father.
I am in a ministry also and found out that if it's not anointed by the Holy Spirit, it won't work. Let me explain, about 5 years ago I was asked to sing with a couple folks in our church. Well we did a couple songs and stuff happens,( about 7 years before,1997, the Lord spoke to me and said you will be singing) well I tried a few times to get different people involved but nothing worked, except one, she has a heart for the Lord , the wife sang with us until her cancer came back but she's healed now. But anyhow , we now have four committed people and things are falling into place like it was meant to be. If we want God's will for our lives, we need to pray and sometimes fast. It will happen in His timing. Forgive my rambling.
Peace,Bill
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Post by ozark on Apr 13, 2009 8:40:37 GMT -5
During recent years so many disgusting events like the Jim Jones affair and a host of others have occured that to proclaim yourself to be a Christian automatically causes many to focus on your honesty. To sin in the name of God is to most far more disgusting than simply being a sinner. The harm that has been done by high profile hypocrits is enormous. I think it would be great if there was some method of seperating the sincere from the pretenders. But until there is a means of true identification expect to be viewed as a Jim Jones or a TV faker. Sad but that is how it is.
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 13, 2009 10:31:50 GMT -5
Ozark......the Holy scriptures forewarn and predict this very thing that you mention. There will be demons parading as angels of light. Since we don't have the discernment to know what is in each man's heart we must put ALL of our faith in the Creator of the universe only. That doesn't mean that we don't trust anyone but it does mean that anyone who is in the flesh has the ability to be influenced by that flesh to an evil desire.
The world sees a Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Baker and associates them with faith in God. They point to them as larger than life people who have great faith without realizing that there is a spiritual warfare going on around us and that Satan is able to win battles along the way. However it isn't fallible man in which we establish our faith, it is in the Son of the Living God. No man or woman is clean of sin and we ALL have an impure heart. Our faith is in the God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that we who believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths in Christ should NOT perish but have everlasting life.
Actually that sounds much too easy to be true. And in a sense it is but the Greek word for "believe" that is used in John 3:16 means so much more than "think it happened".
In the early 1900 this guy threatened to cross Niagara Falls while walking on a rope that was tied off on both sides of the falls. This act of bravery was witnessed by hundreds of people who were cheering this guy on. After he had walked the whole span to the other side he was greeted by this hoard of applauding people. He then asked the people if they thought he could do it again. "Yes we believe" they replied. Then he asked them if he thought that he could cross over on the rope with one of his men in his party on his back? "Yes we believe" they replied. But then when he asked for any volunteers from the crowd to be strapped to his back and make the journey with him the crowd grew silent.
You see........it is one thing to believe that something can happen and quite another to believe it to the point that you would risk your very life for it. We who love Jesus must also die to sin and to the flesh when we accept and believe in Him. Not an easy decision but one that puts us in a whole new awareness of who we are, who God is, and who our Savior is.
Some seem to start out on the right path but as Jesus once said to his disciples...."the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". We fight in a battle against self daily and sometimes we don't do very well. When we fail we do have an advocate with the Father who hears our confession of repentance and puts our feet back on the narrow path to righteousness.
Let's not look to Jim Jones or any other man for our strength because those men aren't the source.
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Post by ozark on Apr 13, 2009 11:11:44 GMT -5
My point isn't that people will look to Jim Jones or some other preacher. My point is that those people causes sinners to doubt the sincerity of all Christians who are promoting the word of God and the steps of salvation. You can talk or preach but it is useless when it falls on dead ears.
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Post by huntingmike on Apr 13, 2009 12:03:45 GMT -5
I am glad to read that there are those who are still believers. The
name Christian was given at Antioch to believers by non believers. I am a believer and follower of Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ. If you refer to me as a Christian because you see God's love in me that is okay. Religion has brought more division to believers than anything else. I agree that many high profile leaders have fallen in disgrace but I want you to realize that the enemy targets those who will lead with temptation beyond description. They need our prayers because religious people are the only army who leave their wounded behind.
I will say my insight comes from being a pastor for 24 years in the Baptist church. Since then I have traveled the world as a missionary evangelist having been baptized in the Holy Ghost (that comes upon) the last eight years.
I have been arrested and tried falsely for being a spy in Nigeria Africa. I have been threatened with a dagger in Nagercoil India.
I have been put in danger by thieves in Brazil South America and have been delivered from them all.
I know in whom I believe and gladly risk my life for his work. I have seen many miracles brought to pass by His Name. To many to name them all. (I will write a book someday.) I share these things to tell you there are many more people that stand in the truth than those who fall by the wayside.
In other countries though most of the people will accept the "Good News" just by preaching the Word. I have seen God save more than two thousand at one alter call. I give praise to the power of God. If you meet me you will see a man. If you come to a crusade with me to another country you may see the miracles you have only heard of in the past. Come join me on my tight rope around the world. I will stop preaching now. IHS
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 13, 2009 12:52:13 GMT -5
My point isn't that people will look to Jim Jones or some other preacher. My point is that those people causes sinners to doubt the sincerity of all Christians who are promoting the word of God and the steps of salvation. You can talk or preach but it is useless when it falls on dead ears. Ozark......to those who are looking at other people for God will surely be the same people who will be swayed by the fact that these Jim Jones type of "Christians" are liars and thus representative of the "Christian religion". For those of us who seek something that people cannot offer us, we are not affected by the bad or evil decisions made by any man. When man comes to the conclusion that HE HIMSELF is a sinner and is in need of a Savior that man will no longer look toward any other man because noone has the ability to change himself. Only God. But if this same man does NOT view himself as a sinner and in no real need of a Savior, that same man may look to the fall of others to critisize them to make him feel better about his own depravity. There can be no blame directed at others who have fallen by those of us who have attained righteousness only through submission to God. Final judgement belongs to God only. Jim Jones is on a long list of people who will have to stand responsible for his lies and actions. But those who blindly followed this man unto the death of themselves and their children will also have to give an account. A certain man died and went to heaven and God asked the man why he had never attended church assemblies. The man replied "But God, those people who fill the churches are all hypocrits".God replied "And???"In the end we will only be responsible for our own love and obedience to the Living God. Those that have pointed to the fall of others will have no excuse. Doug |
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Post by ozark on Apr 13, 2009 17:49:04 GMT -5
Some people have a knack for influencing people while others have a knack for turining people off. I have had people fired up with zeal begin trying to get my sole saved without even asking if I have been born again, if I am a believer, if I am satisfied with my preparations to meet my God. These people usually have a lot of miricles to testify to, tell you all about how Jesus died on the cross for our sins and are not one bit interested in learning or finding any truths other than the ones they think they have. Many feel that their job is to sell the gospel simular to what a used car salesman does. Reason, common sense, logic and intelligence goes south and they turn you off. Most don't want to learn more about the bible or Christianity. They want to give you a message that you have had a thousand times and would like for you to credit them with putting you on a straight and narrow path to heaven. If a Christian doesn't have a talent for teaching or of discussing the subject rationally then I think they should leave that job to people who do have the talent. Testimonals are for the most part worthless and of no benefit to anyone except that person who experienced it.
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 13, 2009 19:15:02 GMT -5
I guess I am not sure about what is rational about a story that says that God created men and then men rebelled against God but God loved them so much that he allowed His own Son to be punished for their rebellion. THAT IS INSANE! What sense does that make? I still have a hard time with it. If not for my direct experiences with God I would still be scratching my head about it.
Just a good story void of experience is usually not going to be effective at changing the hard hearts of the unbelievers. However the listener must be able to relate to the experience in some measure. The fact that God's divine love transends the understanding of common man requires that we share our experiences with them. For many the only Jesus that they will ever see is the Jesus that shines through the hearts of men.
It seems to me that anyone who has had an intimate experience with God has an imparted talent to express that particular experience with others. It is not always graciously received but the giver can't be responsible for that. That is where the power of the Holy Spirit is vital to change a heart of stone into a heart of flesh so that the unbeliever becomes an accepter based on faith and not totally on reason or rationale. None of it makes good sense to me but I know it is true based on experience.
I do know that if I were God I would have exterminated all mankind and started over on another planet. However God's love is divine and mine is rational.
I am saying none of this to diminish what you are saying Ben. In some sense I agree with you. There are many who testify for their own glory as if they are earning points for it. It is very hard for a man to separate his pride from his spiritual life and many times it shows.
Jesus has instructed us to love our neighbor and then described what a neighbor is. Love is not just a feeling, it is an action. When a man shows another man the love that Christ has imparted into his heart there is usually no argueing. That power transends hostility and disagreement but we as Christians must stand ready to invest ourselves unto the lost. That means caring about them and showing it.
I am sure that there is much more to say on this interesting subject and I have dominated this thread to the point that it is now off the originial subject. Enough from me now let's hear from others if possible.
Doug
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Post by ozark on Apr 13, 2009 20:21:27 GMT -5
IMO we cannot believe just because believing is essential to being a Christian. We cannot just will ourselves to believe without seeing some reasonable cause to believe. We must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven but the average person understands birth as coming from the mothers woumb. No way can he just up and be born again because it is the way to heaven. I personally don't think that man can save man and that it requires the powers of the Holy Spirit to be born again and God saves man. I think it happens on Gods schedule and not by some decision by man to say: I have decided to be born again on Sunday and thereby be saved. Or should I take a different route and follow the scripture that says to repent and be baptized and thou shalt be saved. Note that it doesn't say you might be saved and that it doesn't mention being born again in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This whole subject is complex and has been debated by man for centuries. Is there a Hell? The bible says that the wages of sin is death not eternal suffering. My point is that I don't know alll the answers nor the meaning of all the scriptures so I have to trust that God knows me from the inside out and I am just foolish enough to believe that He accepts me. That is my Belief in a nutshell and if tonight is my night to leave this old world then I will do so knowing that I have understood all my mind is capable of understanding and I believe that God is fully aware of my true heart. If I go it will not be in fear of some eternity in a Lake of fire. I will just report in and expect a fair judgement.
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Post by huntingmike on Apr 14, 2009 7:49:56 GMT -5
It is a believers commission to tell of his own personal relationship with the Lord to others. The reason is so that those who have not heard will want to seek God for themselves. It is true that it is the Lord that does the saving as no man can come to the Father but by the Lord. We are begotten by the word and drawn by the power of it.
The lost man's duty is to seek the Lord while he may be found. When the Holy Spirit troubles your heart that there is something missing about your peace or your certainty of your relationship with the Father, that is the time seek him as he said seek me and you shall find me. Knock and it shall be opened unto you. It is all about a relationship between us and the Father. If there is no relationship there is no salvation. If there is no salvation we must come broken before the Lord and beg forgiveness of our sins and say Father I am at your mercy. In the name of Jesus I am sorry for the wasted years when I lived my way not concerned about your plan for my life. I do not want it to be about me anymore but about you. Forgive me of my sins. I proclaim Jesus as my savior and my Lord for through His name I am saved.
With the heart man believes and confession is made unto salvation.
If anyone reads this and will seek God with a whole heart you too can have a relationship as a child of God. The hard part was finished on a cross at Calvary outside of Jerusalem.
Be blessed in Jesus name!
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Post by ozark on Apr 14, 2009 8:51:05 GMT -5
My point seems to havebeen porven here. Been down this road a jillion times. I am out.
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Post by petev on Apr 14, 2009 20:47:15 GMT -5
I think that there have been some incredibly poignant posts here, and a lot of the thoughts will take some digesting. The older I've gotten, the more it seems that there is a spiritual world, that is physical, just beyond our own. Depending on circumstance have you ever found that a darkness, or dark mood is closing in around you? Or that there is light everywhere, and something incredible is happening, maybe the ascension of a departed loved one to heaven? It builds my spirituality, even if it isn't written exactly that way in the Bible. Hunting Mike, I look forward to hearing of some miracles that you have witnessed if you decide to share them. Rambling on further, I heard that Jerry Falwell cautioned that the U.S. could lose it's spiritual protection from God, if we kept pursuing torture during the Iraq War. All of this makes me wonder. And it is a way of looking at everything as if it is all connected. Some of my beliefs are oriented to respecting the land. There are few in our society that share this attitude, so I relate to the Indian's spiritual ties to the land. It works for me. Anyway, I'll bid you good night!
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 14, 2009 22:15:13 GMT -5
I was trying to stay out of this but Craig's original post kept creeping back into my consciousness. A video from an atheist bothered Craig. The atheist asked a very logical question. The question is (paraphrasing) "Why should anyone believe that there is anything supernatural about being born again when Christians don't even seem to care about the possible eternal damnation of the members of their family, next door neighbor, co-workers and friends. Jesus cared enough about them to offer up His life for them but Christians don't seem to be much like Jesus. "
In my opinion that is an astute observation made by the atheist. It is a question worth considering.
So......I have to ask myself some questions here. They go like this:
Shall I back out of this thread so that we can keep the peace?
Shall I not be confrontational at all so that we can all remain friends?
Should I not have any compassion for Ben because I don't really know him on a personal level thus what he believes and does is of no pertinent relevance to me?
All the while I know that the atheist and many like him and also God are scrutinizing the Christian because a Chrisitan's action doesn't back up his words of faith. What should I do?
Well, here goes. Ben......your middle name must be Nicodemus. Nicodemus was a religious man who just couldn't be seen in the presence of Jesus (because of persecution) so he snuck in to see Jesus in the middle of the night to ask Jesus a question. The question was and is......"How can a man be born again into his mother's womb?" Jesus' response was classical Jesus. Jesus the Christ responded. "Nicodemus you should NOT be surprised that I say that a man MUST be born again to enter the kingdom of God. You should understand that flesh gives birth to the flesh and spirit gives birth to the spirit."
Ben, salvation is a spiritual experience, not one that we experience just with the five senses. God has granted us five senses with which to detect the world. Do you really think that those senses are able to detect every and all things that occur in the universe?? We are very limited within our flesh. But God has made us not only of flesh but also of soul and spirit. When we come to recognize and to admit that there is no good within our flesh and that we within ourselves have no potential for goodness at all God knows that our spirits are growing strong. We begin to realize the vital need for the Savior.
Ben, as long as you continue to feel that you are good enough just like you are, then you will never feel the desperation for a Savior. As long as you continue to depend on rationale and logic, that man has devised to justify his actions and thoughts, then you will certainly reject all things that can't be seen or detected with the senses that you have depended on since your birth.
Regeneration is a spiritual experience.....purely. It defies all logical explanation but why shouldn't it? Regeneration is of the spirit. God, who not only created us, but also sustains us is in control. As long as any man wishes to be left alone God will do just that.
I am reminded of a man's encounter with Jesus when Jesus was telling the masses that if they would only believe, that they could be healed of afflictions. The man who wanted healing for his son admitted to Jesus that he had a lack of faith (maybe because the disciples were unable to heal him) and asked Jesus to help him with his unbelief. Jesus responded by healing the boy confirming that even though someone might have a lack of sufficient faith, that self honesty and the simple desire to grasp that faith that is lacking is enough because of God's grace.
Ben I don't claim to know your heart but I do know what you have written. My prayer for you is that you will have a desire for the spiritual peace that passes all human understanding. The Holy Bible doesn't reveal to us if Nicodemus was ever born of the spirit or if he ever fully grasped the idea.
I have thoroughly enjoyed the book that you mailed to me. I have thoroughly enjoyed all of your witty posts over the past three years. And I sincerely pray that you are able to put away all old things to allow all things to become new in the spiritual realm of Christ Jesus.
In Love,
Doug
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Post by ozark on Apr 15, 2009 3:44:03 GMT -5
Doug, I experienced a spiritual rebirth in 1964 and have never since doubted my salvation. I do ask the hard questions because getting folks like you preach to me permits those in real need to understand the light and truth without it being directed at them personally. You have done a good job and I hope that your message is received and it bears fruit. I have no argument with you whatsoever. Thanks for helping me get the message stated without doing it in a manner that would cause people to reject the truth. Again, good job. A young child of God is unable to eat solid food but can be fed soft food. I play the devil advocate often to make a point clear because I understand how many non-believers think. Ozark.
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 15, 2009 9:34:13 GMT -5
Doug, I experienced a spiritual rebirth in 1964 and have never since doubted my salvation. I do ask the hard questions because getting folks like you preach to me permits those in real need to understand the light and truth without it being directed at them personally. You have done a good job and I hope that your message is received and it bears fruit. I have no argument with you whatsoever. Thanks for helping me get the message stated without doing it in a manner that would cause people to reject the truth. Again, good job. A young child of God is unable to eat solid food but can be fed soft food. I play the devil advocate often to make a point clear because I understand how many non-believers think. Ozark. 1964 was a very good year ;D ;D ;D Doug |
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