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Post by bristleback on Dec 8, 2012 11:29:00 GMT -5
Love the site. *I love my Savage Centerfire rifles, I've sold, recommended, shot many, own several myself, they dominate my gun safes.
*I've shot many true "big bore" rifles: 450 Ackley, 500 NE, 505 Gibbs, ........and several others up to a 585 Nyati.
I own a Savage ML, I've owned it for ? 5-6 years, I've put maybe 100 rounds through it. I'm shooting the "accuracy load" suggested by Savage I don't know it by heart, 45-ish grain of N110, 250 bullet with a MMP sabot. I don't "hot rod" mine....
My point in posting, there was another one of these blow up this week here in Iowa.........gentleman lost his thumb.....not sure about the rest of his hand. "Supposedly" he too was using the "standard" load N110, 250 bullet/sabot.........
What can I do to assure, I won't have a failure........do we definatively know what the cause of these are: double charges, double loading.....bullet/sabot not seated firmly........bullet coming out of the sabot while afield, using smokeless powder in pyrodex volumes ie 100-150 grains???........I'm concerned, I know the only way to absolutely assure it won't come apart is to not shoot it........I know too many on here have had tremendous success.......so much I like about my rifle.......again, I'm concerned. I'd appreciate straight forward comments, from users......Sincerely thank you.
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Post by bowhunterjsc on Dec 8, 2012 12:40:28 GMT -5
I would say most of the failures, if not 100% of them, smokeless guns or not, are operator error, such as one of the things you mentioned above. We are human and we will make errors. Muzzleloaders have more things that we can screw up than say... cambering a cartridge into your CF rifle, but be smart, keep track of what you are doing, and you'll be fine.
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Post by jims on Dec 8, 2012 13:46:14 GMT -5
I would agree that most failures are somehow related to the user. A double load, improper powder, ramrod left in etc. It happens unfortunately. Not so easy with a centerfire as most use factory cartridges and generally there is not enough case volume to permit a double load but the wrong powder could do it in a reload. Just more things that can happen with a muzzleloader especially if one get distracted. Even then many do not want to admit they did something wrong or just don't remember doing it. Hope he heals.
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Post by bristleback on Dec 8, 2012 14:08:36 GMT -5
Is there any concern with a bullet coming unseated from a sabot or sabot somehow "walking" up the barrel in some instances.........either the sabot or the bullet essentially becoming an "obstruction".........?
Thank you, I appreciate the in put.
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Post by AJ on Dec 8, 2012 15:39:05 GMT -5
I would not say the concern is any greater with a smokeless muzzleloader than a BP/sub loaded muzzleloader. You will find that a tight fitting projectile is necessary for function and accuracy. If the bullet comes out of the sabot, it will fall out of the bore and you will have a 5 grain bullet (sabot only). As with life, there are no guarantees. Could something happen? Sure, but I do go through steps to mitigate the chances of them happening. Use a marked ramrod Pre-measure loads and have them marked and segregated Use tight fitting projectiles Develop a loading procedure that you follow each and every time you load the gun. Put your ramrod in one particular place before you prime the gun. Visually verify before primer is installed. This will keep you from spear shooting.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 8, 2012 16:54:48 GMT -5
I think in some ways certain subs and real BP can be more dangerous than smokeless. Real BP will ignite pretty good even if you only short started the bullet/sabot. No compression or tight fitting projectile is needed. Pellets can separate under the same condition creating 1-2 extra delayed ignitions.
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Post by edwardamason on Dec 10, 2012 19:09:33 GMT -5
Ive had new shooters with Savage MLII's with super tight fitting combos that "think" they have the bullet seated all the way. Stood by them and had to stop them from making a costly mistake and shove the load another 2 or so inches because it was so hard to push down.
With some of the tight fitting combos it "can" feel like you have it fully seated. So I suspect of the kabooms you hear about are probably rounds not seated properly.
There is no better safety practice than using a witness mark on your ramrod. It simply does not lie.!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 19:35:03 GMT -5
well, Im going to stick my neck out here and say that if the powder is not compressed with a tight fitting bullet on top there is no way that smokeless powder will ignite, at least thats my experience. I have seen far too many loose fitting combos that WOULD NOT IGNITE to believe that an unseated projectile would even go off, much less explode.. black powder? very likely.. smokeless? dont think so...jmo, for what its worth..
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Post by jeremylong on Dec 10, 2012 20:20:30 GMT -5
well, Im going to stick my neck out here and say that if the powder is not compressed with a tight fitting bullet on top there is no way that smokeless powder will ignite, at least thats my experience. I have seen far too many loose fitting combos that WOULD NOT IGNITE to believe that an unseated projectile would even go off, much less explode.. black powder? very likely.. smokeless? dont think so...jmo, for what its worth.. You are correct. I have done it.
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Post by tar12 on Dec 11, 2012 6:25:33 GMT -5
I started out shooting the Savage back in 2000. I did not have a clue. I did not know Dougs existed. If there was a ever candidate for blowing one up it was me but I never did. My very first hunting experience went like this...I had a ML-1 loaded up with 4227,short black MMP, 250 grn XTP and Win.209 as I was stalking along a ridge after a rain. I spot a doe coming up out of a ravine and she stopped broadside at 40 yds...I had the back straps sizzling in the pan already! ;D I start to squeeze her off and hear puff...d**n it what happen? I slowly put another primer in and same result and she is still standing there! She allowed me to try one more time and still nothing! I was torqued! I stomped off back to the truck and tried 4 more primers and still nothing...I pull the breech plug and dump the powder out on the truck hood. It had a dark glazed unburnt look to it. The surprise came when I went to push the bullet/sabot out. The ramrod encountered the bullet over half way down the barrel! Later I realized it was a combo of poor powder choice,sabot/bullet fit and a leaky module. ;D Bristleback I have shot literally 1,000s of round since then both book loads and non-book loads with out a blow up and so have many others on this board. My pretty mug is still intact! ;D No wise cracks allowed! ;D There have been barrels bulged from double loading. There has been powder funnels,ram rods,spin jags,bore sighters shot out with out failure. IMO, the Savage is the safest muzzy on the market bar none! Both of my children shoot Savages. I would not allow this for 1 second if I thought that their safety would ever be in doubt. The Savage is as safe as any the other tool that you respect.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Dec 11, 2012 20:54:21 GMT -5
Yup!
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 11, 2012 20:58:26 GMT -5
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Post by 500cadillac on Dec 11, 2012 21:50:35 GMT -5
First blued barrel I've seen ruptured.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 12, 2012 9:38:26 GMT -5
I wonder if he was shooting saboted or sabotless. Of course with a double load it probably doesn't matter.
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Post by tasaman on Dec 16, 2012 8:26:56 GMT -5
That is the first news report on guns I've seen that didn't try to put guns in a bad light. Good reporting right there. I double loaded back about a month ago and that could have been me if I didn't notice it.
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Post by kralik4jr on Dec 16, 2012 10:04:34 GMT -5
The only reason it didn't get a negative spin by the press was that the person involved took full responsiblity for the accident. WOW!!! There is a new thought. If I make a mistake, I take responsibilty for may actions and not blame someone or something else. My hats off to the guy and hope he's able to heal up enough to hunt a little for MZ season. Hopefully a thumb wouldn't stop me, I got a spare. God Bless.
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lee
Forkhorn
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Post by lee on Sept 25, 2013 5:52:09 GMT -5
A bit off the subject but when I pull the bolt back on my 50 cal ml2 it continues all the way until it comes out of the receiver. If I tighten the action bolt it will not allow me to pull the trigger. The rifle performs normally but if not careful the bolt will come all the way out of the rifle. Just wondering if this is a safety concern or have others experienced this. Rifle is only useful when the action bolt is tightened to this extent. If I tighten the action screw to enough to stop the bolt from sliding out the rifle is not functional.
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Post by edge on Sept 25, 2013 8:03:39 GMT -5
Where is thumbkin? Where is thumbkin? Here I am Here I am. How are you this morning? Very well, I thank you....
Sorry, use a witness mark and the the right powder bullet combo and you won't have to look for thumbkin!
edge.
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Post by 10ga on Sept 26, 2013 17:08:13 GMT -5
lee, old thread and probably won't get any looks like your problem needs. Suggest you make a new thread with your original problem delineated and in the subject line. 10
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Post by bigmoose on Jul 31, 2014 7:06:44 GMT -5
I started shooting Savages in 2001, started with book loads than testing sabotless for Rick Bibby, for the new folks Rick was more or less the father of sabotless I no longer count shots fired, a fair guess is over 10000, I simple follow simple rules. number one WITNESS marks on the shooting bench lay out 10 primers, ten bullets ten sabots,ten powder tubes and if you loss track, your witness mark will save you. Huning the same I have a film box that holds 5 tubes with powder and so on. If you think about it you really have to try to shoot a double load
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Post by artjr338wm on Sept 3, 2014 9:21:17 GMT -5
ABSOLUTELY no man made device especially firearms can be made to be Idiot proof. This" unintended consequence" and inescapable fact of life is what allows unscrupulous and disreputable lawyers to make their fortunes from.
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Post by randywakeman on Sept 7, 2014 8:20:48 GMT -5
Love the site. *I love my Savage Centerfire rifles, I've sold, recommended, shot many, own several myself, they dominate my gun safes. *I've shot many true "big bore" rifles: 450 Ackley, 500 NE, 505 Gibbs, ........and several others up to a 585 Nyati. I own a Savage ML, I've owned it for ? 5-6 years, I've put maybe 100 rounds through it. I'm shooting the "accuracy load" suggested by Savage I don't know it by heart, 45-ish grain of N110, 250 bullet with a MMP sabot. I don't "hot rod" mine.... My point in posting, there was another one of these blow up this week here in Iowa.........gentleman lost his thumb.....not sure about the rest of his hand. "Supposedly" he too was using the "standard" load N110, 250 bullet/sabot......... To the very best of my knowledge, no single Savage 10ML-II has ever failed, or even been damaged, when used with recommended loads . . . in 14 years. Shooting out ramrods, double-charging, etc., has been all too common. It can be done, of course, but you really have to be exceedingly negligent. If you want to break one, here's now: randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm . They are not idiot-proof, only idiot-resistant.
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Post by muznut on Sept 9, 2014 17:08:17 GMT -5
Same goes for the CVA's, Operator error!!
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Post by ourway77 on Mar 3, 2016 6:17:06 GMT -5
Rule number one If you think some thing is wrong it probably is Check and double check as I got older I have found forgetfulness is a way of life So with that I am more aware of what I do Be safe
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