Crossbow or compound bow??

[dougedwards]

In the state of Virginia the amount of tags being purchased for archery hunting has increased three fold since the acceptance of crossbows as a legal primitive hunting weapon. This in a financially depressed economy in which the total types of tags purchased has decreased in the last two years. Also, the sporting goods stores are selling more crossbows than compound bows now. Why do you think this would be?

Is it that there are more people with disabilities to prevent them from drawing a compound bow?

Are they more accurate?

Are they inherently faster?

Or.....is it that they require little practice to effectively kill deer?

What do you think?

[deadon]

# 1 and #4. Anyone who can shoot a rifle---can shoot a crossbow-- all one has to do is GET USED TO THE TRIGGER, imho, rUSTY------------ i CAN shoot A Rifle And I Can shoot a Crossbow--- I Just cannot Type. Rusty

[Dave W]

My guess is primarily #4. In addition, it is something new and grabbing their attention.

[jray57]

With a crossbow one only has to aim(thru a scope) and pull the trigger-with a real bow much practice and the ability to draw the bow while the deer can hear you breathing make it a little more challenging.

[youp50]

For me, the crossbow is a physical necessity. Right shoulder has been a bum for 16 years...and now the left one is laying down on me.

[dougedwards]

Yes I can see that a crossbow is the only option for some and it is fun to be out in the woods and hunting no matter which weapon that you have but it seems that our contemporary society teaches to take the course of least resistance. True talented musicians are becoming a rare commodity as almost all types of sound can be digitally mastered and reproduced by computers. Kids don't need to learn the art of language and vocal communication because they can type their thoughts through texting or email.

Shooting any vertical bow requires practice and diligence. It is truly an art form and the gratifying reward is just to feel and hear a good release. Pertaining to hunting the challenge is being able to get close enough and slowly draw without being seen. All of this while your heart feels like it is pounding out of your chest.

I actually suppose that the underlying reason that crossbows have become the archery weapon of choice is that for those that are physically capable........the challenging aspect of the sport is just not worth it. The end will justify the means. The view at the top of the mountain is just not worth the climb. I can kill a deer with a crossbow and I don't have to invest myself into the process but so much.

The guys at the local archery shop tell me that they sell the most crossbows the very week prior to bow season. Kind of sad.

These comments are not meant in any way to put down crossbows. I shot one myself for a couple of years after neck surgery. It's just a fear that I have that the archer will eventually go the way of the talented musician. I hope not. I also hope that children continue to learn to play guitars and pianos and drums and clarinets and learn to speak English fluently.....LOL

[sw]

Doug,
I use a SZ 380/HHA Optimizer/1.5x4.5 WCE/Red Hots/FOCs(170g Spitfires) . As modern as it gets! Effective range greater than I'll post. I also use my Palmer Classic recurve bow and 40 cal PacNor'd ML-2. I'm equally comfortable with all 3 but each has it's strengths.
Hard to believe , but I enjoy each equally or nearly so. Taking a great crossbow/accessories to it's limit is challenging and rewarding. This especially so with a 5 1/2 month season vs 3 weekends for ML/shotgun. When I was a die hard traditional(stick) bow hunter for decades, I often wondered at Dick Idol's comment that he was equally happy hunting with whatever was legal to use. I thought he was strange/mis-guided. Now, I am also. I still love music.

[dougedwards]

There is no doubt that hunting can be challenging no matter which legal weapon is the choice. When the weapon itself is chosen simply because it is the least challenging way to kill something......well, that just defies everything that is exciting and wonderful about the art of hunting to me.

I do not believe that anyone is misguided. I do believe that majority of those guys who purchase a crossbow a week or two before the season starts (some the day before) are missing out on the "art" of hunting and are primarily interested in killing. Not all of them mind you but I do know that in my state which requires separate tags for crossbow kills, the vertical bow kills are way down and the crossbow kills keep climbing and are the majority of archery tags used. This could either indicate that the crossbow is a much more efficient way to harvest a whitetail or.......that there are less people investing themselves into the hours of practicing to shoot a vertical bow effectively. I think I know the answer but I could be wrong.

[ET]

Dougedwards

Each man dances differently to the tune that delights him.
Following your posts you obviously have a passion using a compound bow that not only requires skill but also an up close encounter that brings you satisfaction from the hunt.
I hope as the years pass you will continue in this form for a long time to derive the satisfaction you enjoy so much.

Even though I use a muzzle loader for deer the passion for me lies in making a quick humane kill by taking a shot within my self imposed limitations. In other words I wait for the best possible shot angle, distance and clearance from brush or other obstacles.
No I haven’t shot any bragging size deer in the area I normally hunt but I’ve haven’t had to do any real serious tracking to reclaim my earned prize that in itself is great satisfaction to me.

I’ve never gotten good enough with a bow to feel comfortable in trying to harvest a deer this way. Before the years take their final toll I would enjoy at least having one season to try hunting deer this way either with a compound or crossbow if need be.
Hopefully our health in the upcoming years will be kind to us.


Ed

[dougedwards]

Aug 24, 2012 20:38:32 GMT -5 ET said:

Dougedwards

Each man dances differently to the tune that delights him.
Following your posts you obviously have a passion using a compound bow that not only requires skill but also an up close encounter that brings you satisfaction from the hunt.
I hope as the years pass you will continue in this form for a long time to derive the satisfaction you enjoy so much.

Even though I use a muzzle loader for deer the passion for me lies in making a quick humane kill by taking a shot within my self imposed limitations. In other words I wait for the best possible shot angle, distance and clearance from brush or other obstacles.
No I haven’t shot any bragging size deer in the area I normally hunt but I’ve haven’t had to do any real serious tracking to reclaim my earned prize that in itself is great satisfaction to me.

I’ve never gotten good enough with a bow to feel comfortable in trying to harvest a deer this way. Before the years take their final toll I would enjoy at least having one season to try hunting deer this way either with a compound or crossbow if need be.
Hopefully our health in the upcoming years will be kind to us.


Ed

Ed......I first began visiting this site because I had a Savage smokeless muzzleloader which I enjoy immensely. I enjoy hunting in almost all venues with almost any weapon but the purpose of my posts really wasn't about me. I am 57 yrs old and I am witnessing a change in the people that are springing up around me. It is almost a philosophy of the less I have to invest myself into something the better[/i]

I am sure that my days of hunting with a compound bow are limited but that doesn't bother me. I love hunting. Maybe I will even reduce my drawing poundage to 40 lbs so that I can continue to hunt with a vertical bow but I don't know my future.

We all should participate in the sport of hunting because we love to hunt......not because we would like to kill something. Just my opinion but my opnion is all I got.

Doug

[sagittarius]

Hi, Doug.

Lots of varying opinions on this subject.
I bought my Scorpyd crossbow in 2009 because of a previous injury to my shoulder/bicep in 2006.

I began shooting my compounds again on a regular basis in early 2010 when I received my German made OK Archery Renegade 8 compound.
My RDT 125 crossbow is 41 fps faster than my Renegade 8 which translates to a slight advantage in speed but nothing to write home about.
THE Scorpyd 165 does offer a big increase in speed over most compounds being around 55 fps faster than my Scorpyd RDT 125.

With a rest, there is a slight accuracy advantage with my crossbow vs offhand with my compound.
When both are shot offhand, the advantage easily goes to my compound.

Here is my personal feelings on practice with each type.
Yes, the crossbow is easier to master and takes less time vs a compound because the crossbow doesn't have a certain draw length and doesn't have be fitted to the archer like a compound does.
But, once a compound shooter has a properly fitted bow with correct draw length and draw weight, it doesn't take long at all to be hitting the bulls-eye.
I feel, I could teach a new archer with either a crossbow or compound to shoot good enough groups to hunt with in one day.
There are some that would need longer but most would be ready in a short amount of time.

A big deal is made about practice time needed to master a compound bow and not so much with a crossbow.
A couple of weeks ago, I got out my compound bow for the first time since last year to shoot some groups in anticipation of our upcoming bowhunting season.
My first shot was right under the bull, the next just beside it on the right, the 3rd right in the bull after the proper adjustments.
Did not take a lot of practice there and not that much talent either.
I know my bows and they're properly fitted year round.
Didn't really surprise me to hit the bull so soon even after a year layoff.
Yes, I'm going to practice more and varying distances before going hunting; don't worry !

So, while the crossbow is oftentimes criticized as the tool for lazy people that don't want to take the needed time to master it, the same could be said for those who choose compounds too.

[Deleted]

In missippi a primitve weapon is a single shot rifle.....
If crossbows help increase the hunting interest level from the public then that's a good thing......vertical bows can be intimidating to the youth that is coming up and also the Coolness of an Xbow makes most greenhorns lean that way...
It's all good.......
Greenhorn

[rjhans53]

I've hunted for years with a compound (started with a bear white tail, do you remember them) and then to the martin firecats when they were martins top of the line. I've killed more that a few dear with a compound, one with a crossbow. They both have sort of the same range limitations, the compound is harder to master (even though I broke mine out for the 1st time in 2 years and can still hit a 4" bull @ 35yards). I even worked really hard 1 year and hunted with a bear kodiak recurve. The crossbow seemed to me to be more cumbersome to tote in the woods, the recurve the lightest, but if I was going to do it again I would probably go with a crossbow just because I don't have the time anymore that I used to, and we are suppose to have more as we get older, but it's not working that way for me

[Dave W]

Sept 3, 2012 13:37:19 GMT -5 rjhans53 said:

I've hunted for years with a compound (started with a bear white tail, do you remember them) and then to the martin firecats when they were martins top of the line. I've killed more that a few dear with a compound, one with a crossbow. They both have sort of the same range limitations, the compound is harder to master (even though I broke mine out for the 1st time in 2 years and can still hit a 4" bull @ 35yards). I even worked really hard 1 year and hunted with a bear kodiak recurve. The compound seemed to me to be more cumbersome to tote in the woods, the recurve the lightest, but if I was going to do it again I would probably go with a crossbow just because I don't have the time anymore that I used to, and we are suppose to have more as we get older, but it's not working that way for me

Remember both those bows well. Owned several Firecats, and actually still have one with recurve limbs and round wheels. Nice shooting bow in their time.

[dougedwards]

Sept 2, 2012 16:52:57 GMT -5 sagittarius said:

Hi, Doug.

Lots of varying opinions on this subject.
I bought my Scorpyd crossbow in 2009 because of a previous injury to my shoulder/bicep in 2006.

I began shooting my compounds again on a regular basis in early 2010 when I received my German made OK Archery Renegade 8 compound.
My RDT 125 crossbow is 41 fps faster than my Renegade 8 which translates to a slight advantage in speed but nothing to write home about.
THE Scorpyd 165 does offer a big increase in speed over most compounds being around 55 fps faster than my Scorpyd RDT 125.

With a rest, there is a slight accuracy advantage with my crossbow vs offhand with my compound.
When both are shot offhand, the advantage easily goes to my compound.

Here is my personal feelings on practice with each type.
Yes, the crossbow is easier to master and takes less time vs a compound because the crossbow doesn't have a certain draw length and doesn't have be fitted to the archer like a compound does.
But, once a compound shooter has a properly fitted bow with correct draw length and draw weight, it doesn't take long at all to be hitting the bulls-eye.
I feel, I could teach a new archer with either a crossbow or compound to shoot good enough groups to hunt with in one day.
There are some that would need longer but most would be ready in a short amount of time.

A big deal is made about practice time needed to master a compound bow and not so much with a crossbow.
A couple of weeks ago, I got out my compound bow for the first time since last year to shoot some groups in anticipation of our upcoming bowhunting season.
My first shot was right under the bull, the next just beside it on the right, the 3rd right in the bull after the proper adjustments.
Did not take a lot of practice there and not that much talent either.
I know my bows and they're properly fitted year round.
Didn't really surprise me to hit the bull so soon even after a year layoff.
Yes, I'm going to practice more and varying distances before going hunting; don't worry !

So, while the crossbow is oftentimes criticized as the tool for lazy people that don't want to take the needed time to master it, the same could be said for those who choose compounds too.

Good stuff right there. But I sure would like to shoot one of those German made OK archery bows. I will trade ya a crossbow for it. ;D ;D ;D

[sagittarius]

The quality of the OK bows are astounding, Doug.
I believe, you would like one.
I once asked Chris (owner of OK) if he might be interesting in building a crossbow someday.
He wasn't opposed to the idea but his bread and butter is definitely compounds.
I believe, an OK Crossbow would be something special just like their compounds.

Too bad, you don't live closer to me; would be glad to let you look my Renegade 8 over and shoot it.
My DL is 31", though, so don't know if that would work for you.

[dougedwards]

You know......I can see how my posts may come across as an expression that a compound bow takes more expertise to shoot and that folks who don't shoot one are just lazy. I just have a hard time making my fingers express correctly what is in my heart. I think crossbows are cool. In fact, up until last year I bought tags for hunting with a compound AND a crossbow as the state of Virginia requires a separate license to hunt with each.

Lately I have been spending some time in sporting goods stores such as Gander Mountain, Bass Pro and Dicks. They are all swamped with come lately hunters who want to purchase something to kill with. It is amazing what I have been hearing from them. No preparation, no forethought, they don't even ask reasonable questions like......What is the effective range of this weapon or............How much drop can I expect from the arrow at 40 yards or.......What happens if I cut a string in the field?

Nope, just questions like.....How fast will this thing shoot.......does it get heavy to carry through the woods.......and of course......how much does it cost? I love the sport of hunting and actually the killing is my least favorite part of the whole ordeal. I guess I am beginning to wonder if I am a just a dinosaur. You know......I growled and I stomped around a bit but now is the time to replace the old with the new. That is just the nature of things and that doesn't sadden me one bit but what does sadden me is that it seems that art is also dying.

If I am wrong, and I surely pray that I am, then someone just straighten me out and tell me that they know of young kids who really do have a hunger to learn about hunting and find it rather mystical. Tell me that they know of hunters who are encouraged to climb a tedious mountain to shoot big horn sheep or drive for miles just to hear a turkey gobble just before spring season begins.

I know that I am getting philosophical in my old age but in a day when society believes that big financial debt is normal and that BIG government is a good thing, I would like to hold on to something that doesn't seem to be going insane. For me it has been the mornings right before the sun comes up and the sound of the crickets and crows. I find solace in bending down to hear something making a sound in hopes that it might be a ten point whitetail only to discover it is a raccoon heading back for cover. It all makes me smile and I pray that the younger generation hasn't bought into the philosophy of the end justifies the means because it is the means by which we end up with a trophy and it is the means to the end that is so very gratifying.

Yeah, I know that I failed again to properly express myself and I need to go back into my grandpa cave and chill. But what else can an old man do but reflect?

[Dave W]

When my boys were younger, I tried to pass the sport down. Spent many days in the woods chasing squirrel, rabbit, turkey, and deer. As they grew older the trips to the woods were fewer and farther between, and once they were teenagers, that was pretty much the end of it. They don't understand how I can get up before dawn and sit in the cold for hours on stand and let deer walk. They think it is boring and a waste of time if their is nothing to show for the time spent.

Most of the guys that I know that are hunters that have kids tell me it is the same for them. There are a few that have kids that hunt, but they are the minority.

Whether it is a generational thing, or lack of patience, or an instant gratification thing, I don't have the answer but I tend to think it is the latter of the three. Or maybe there are just too many other options to occupy their time that they find more interesting? Sort of like reading, both of my kids were encouraged to read when they were young and they did. Now it is, "ah just wait for the movie to come out, it's the same thing". UGH!

Whatever the reason, I don't foresee either of my two finding the urge to begin hunting again anytime soon.

[ET]

DW

Even though I‘m not a parent I can still observe the next and younger generation progressing forward.
I believe instant gratification is one the main factors that drives the younger generation today. Combine that with all the optional surrounding technology today and comforts available it appears that motivational commitment is directed in this area. In our generation computers, cell phones, large screen TV’s and other advances didn’t exist when we were kids. This then made more free time available to direct our energies into other areas of learning and experiencing what life has to offer. Our individual identities had to be discovered instead of being suppressed or redirected as seen today.

In my case some of that free time when I was younger was steered by me into the area of hunting and fishing. Here I learned a lot about the balance of life and my surroundings. It also provided me a temporary escape from society’s demands on me as one of its citizens. It also IMO kept me away from drugs and alcohol because of the commitment it demanded from me to fully enjoy what it has to offer.

Yes even here technology has made advancements to supposedly make life better in this area. In a way it has but also has robbed us from some of the basic learning required by the older generation to be successful.
We have killing equipment that can reach out to greater distance to acquire game so care to get closer to your game is not necessary.
We have game monitoring equipment so less field time is not necessary.
We now have equipment to make transporting anything easier so we are no longer limited to carrying essential equipment.
We now have light equipment to take along in the field that doesn’t require learning how to build a shelter, stand or blind from surrounding materials.
And yes there are still more technological advancements available that just requires some money to purchase.

Don’t get me wrong as I’m not knocking advancements or improvements and actually enjoy some of them as I get older that extends my hunting lifetime. I just wouldn’t trade off my learning experience of the basics over the years that has brought many satisfying moments over time.
But if I could I would trade off some of the years my body has accumulated. ;D



Ed

[wilmsmeyer]

Lot's of thoughts here on the "new generation" and weapons.

Growing up in the Catskills, I would witness every year a wave on NYC hunters loading up every hotel in our area. Local gun shops were swamped and every diner full on opening week.

One thing I remember clearly is that the majority of these folks were not the "true" hunters that we all feel we are. They were lazy and visiting the area for a good time with the guys. Many never had hunted before and never owned a gun. So many times I'd see guys mishandling guns being shown to them in the gun stores, asking how to load the gun, buying many boxes of ammo, putting expensive scopes on the gun but never sighting in. 5 shot volleys were the norm.

It was sad to say the least. I think much of what we see in terms of lack of dedication to ANYTHING....be it a gun, bow or crossbow, is more related to changing trends in culture. We are so bombarded with so many things to do that we somehow need to make things as easy as possible just to get everything done. Take people who buy GPS's for travel: The tried and true method of reading a road map has gone by the wayside...yet 99% of these people get where they are going very efficiently. The trouble starts when these "easy fixes" for things break down and you have to do something the old way...which takes knowledge, time and patience. Most people break down and can't handle it because they never had to "learn" anything related to something that they rely on everyday. Smart phones and all the app's, wikopedia, etc. You don't have to learn anything anymore you only need to type in ask.com and get the answer from others that have already figured it out. My wife's 14 year old son has to buy a calcualtor this year for 9th grade Algebra...A CALCULATOR??? REALLY?? 30 years ago, if you were caught with a calculator in school you'd get written up!! Yes, the easy life also trickles into school

I believe that this mentality has crept into the sport of hunting. The vast majority of those that hunt would absolutely spend less money to fill their freezer by going to the grocery store. No clothes, guns, euip, gas money, stands, ammo, etc to buy. To the masses, this hunting stuff is sport related and something to do on a weekend and not a life project of mastering weapons and techniques. They need success quickly and want to buy the success and not earn it. They see TV shows that portray many, many phony products, testimonials, hunting scenes, etc.

I think Doug Edwards is trying to say the same thing. It's not just bows against crossbows....it's true sportsman against wanna be's that are not "into it" although they think they are.

And this mentality is not just hunting/weapon related....it's across many spectrum's of society. Like the guy that buys a set of Ping golf clubs and fancy clothes, expensive balls and expects to go out there and play like Tiger woods...against a small town kids with hand-me-down clubs a bag of range balls and the perseverance and desire of a hungry mountain lion. When these to guys meet, the guy with the rag-tag equipment completely out shines the fancy guy. He appreciates good play, good shots and is always trying to improve. When he gets that opportunity to finally afford a new driver....one that he's researched and dreamed about for 2 years, he employees it's every advantage effectively.

I'm rambling a little here but I think I know what Dougedwards is saying

[sagittarius]

Doug,

I think, you expressed yourself quite well and always do !
I don't take anything you have said about crossbows as a negative.
You bring up some valid points without bashing, unlike many others have done.
Always enjoy reading your posts here and on AT.
Great posts from all here on this topic. (thumbs up) !

[dougedwards]

Most of us guys began to frequent this forum because shooting a muzzleloader fast and clean was appealing to us. We tested and we experimented and we backed up a bit and we tried again to make things better than before. Smokeless shooting was a rather novel idea through what was once called a smokepole and it was pretty exciting stuff.

Some things worked well and others did not. We posted our targets and even sometimes argued about things. But eventually it became evident that the end result was never good enough. It was the means to the end that influenced us to forge ahead. It was the discovery process that appealed to us more than any by product of discovery.

Contrast that with the guy who walks into the sporting goods store and picks up a CVA which has never been tested, some pyrodex pellets, some powerbelts recommended by the store clerk, a big old Barska 10-40x50 scope, the cheapest rings and bases that he can find, and a bore sighter and he is ready to go hunting.

Sounds pretty bizarre doesn't it? But those guys outnumber us 100 to 1. Actually, I used to be one of those guys. But eventually something intriguing drew me in. I discovered that nature was awesome. I studied it and tried to figure it out. But the more I looked into it the more I realized how very awesome it is.

I feel real pity for those people who walk through life without an awareness that a reality exists that is much more awesome than anything that we can make or produce. I see it in nature. Someone else might see it human relationships or reading or even in science.

But for the man who believes that you must grab for all the gusto you can get because you only go around once in life......well, that man will never sit back and be in awe of gusto because he is too busy trying to get something.

Of course I am preaching to the choir here but it is nice to know that the choir is still there, alert and responding. ;D