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Post by superkirby on Feb 25, 2012 10:23:33 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but want to hear it from an outside source. I mentioned to a relative with a lot more reloading experience than I that I was about to have a 45-70 barrel converted to smokeless and spent the next half hour hearing about how bad and unsafe of an idea that was. It ended with "I can't wait to tell you 'I told you so.'"
That said, it got me thinking last night. I know it's NOT safe to shoot smokeless out of an Encore muzzleloader barrel. I wouldn't try it in a million years. The thought of a 45-70 barrel converted never bothered me until after this conversation. In theory, whether it's a TC barrel or a Bergara barrel, chances are they use the same material for a muzzleloader barrel as they do a centerfire. I guess my question is, what makes a 45-70 conversion safe for smokeless? And why is a standard muzzleloader barrel not safe?
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Post by mike3132 on Feb 25, 2012 10:52:58 GMT -5
Basically the grade of steel used in smokeless is stronger than BP barrels. Smokeless guns are just as safe as BP guns. The unsafe element is the operator.
If you use proven loads, weigh your powder, seat the bullet all the way down and use a witness mark on your ramrod smokeless muzzleloading is very safe. Mike
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Post by mountainam on Feb 25, 2012 11:01:17 GMT -5
I'd say it is based on materials used of unknown or unsubstantiated strength. The rest is hysteria. Think about it, The entire force of the cartridge in an Encore is on the head of the casing against the firing pin support and the tangent point of the hinge pin. That DOES scare me. But , they take it everytime up to .338 Win Mag pressures. When used as a ML the frame does not experience NEAR the amount of pressure due to the threaded breechplug. The threads would bear a considerable amount of force before the frame and hinge pin would even begin to register any. The bolt action builds on our site require the BP extend beyond the barrel lug. I'm not that familiar with the Encore, but I can't get my brain wrapped around where that point would be on a non-barrel lugged Encore. And--- If that doesn't apply to an Encore then why does it apply to a larger diameter barrel on a bolt rifle?
I wouldn't feel as comfortable shooting a firearm with an investment CAST action as I would one that was a forging. But guys use them every day with not a problem. So I can see why you may feel confused. It's a matter of safety first. In the case of your .45/70, that barrel doesn't KNOW whether a cartridge or a powder charge has sent the projectile through the barrel. It can only react to peak pressure due to it's metalurgy. If you don't exceed pressures of the .45/70 cartrige, the barrel won't know. I think, but am not certain if that rifle is also available in a .450 Marlin. If so, that will hike up the pressure threshold. Good Luck with your project.
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Post by muznut on Feb 25, 2012 11:49:50 GMT -5
Its the grade of steel and heat treatment I'm not sure if TC heat treats their Encore muzzleloader barrels but even if the do I don't think the breech plug is and there is a gap between the plug and rifle frame a plug with a running start and tons of pressure isn't a good thing. If I was going to do an Encore 4570 conversion I would use a smaller diam. plug like the SMI because of the one inch diam. barrel.  |
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Post by superkirby on Feb 25, 2012 13:29:08 GMT -5
Here's the explanation I was given.
When you fire a standard cartridge, the brass expands and grabs the chamber walls to take pressure off the breech. Also smokeless powder is not meant to be compressed in most loads.
And last, without a cartridge there's no way to gauge pressures until it's too late. He said 209 primers have too much variance in materials that they are not a consistent indicator of overpressure, and by the time they do show signs of pressure it's too late.
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Post by mountainam on Feb 25, 2012 13:44:59 GMT -5
I don't quite agree with that. Pressure is exerted equal and opposite in ALL directions. The case expands because it was undersized to facilitate insertion into the chamber. And actually some of the most accurate loadings in a CF is when using a powder that fills the case entirely with some compression. See, it's easier to determine a ML load for a .45 cal than a .50 because you can use KNOWN cased cartridges for a baseline. Grain for grain a ML probably will not attain as high pressure due to the fact that you will not be getting the same seal due to the cartridge bullet being swaged into the rifling whereas the ML will not. As far as the 209 primer I'm in agreement with your pal. That's why I use a .32ACP casing with rifle primers ,but I'm definitely in the minority on that one.
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Post by muznut on Feb 25, 2012 16:05:39 GMT -5
Superkirby the breech plug takes the pressure of the breech and the faster powders when compressed can increase pressure but with slower rifle powders its usually the other way around. And your right checking for pressure with a 209 is not a perfect method but with that and looking at your sabots you can tell when you need to back off. |
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Post by superkirby on Feb 25, 2012 16:44:31 GMT -5
Thanks for all the help and advice. I figured it was safe, but didn't really have a reason to think it was other than "other people are doing it."
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Post by Jon on Feb 25, 2012 18:22:35 GMT -5
Mountainman. Being in the minority is not always bad. You have been working with smokless a lot longer than some here now not faulting the people now but they should not forget there were others there first that put them in the position to be where they are today. I hope the (for lack of a better word old timers) keep on posting and helping us keep moving ahead what smokless is capable of. you help to keep us out of trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2012 22:41:57 GMT -5
Basically the grade of steel used in smokeless is stronger than BP barrels. Smokeless guns are just as safe as BP guns. The unsafe element is the operator. If you use proven loads, weigh your powder, seat the bullet all the way down and use a witness mark on your ramrod smokeless muzzleloading is very safe. Mike The statement " the grade of steel used in smokeless is stronger than BP..... I've heard that many times but where is the proof. Does Thompson actually use an inferior grade barrel in their BP muzzleloader ? I just posted in another thread that a friend of mine who I trust completely had a barrel cutoff from an Encore BP barrel tested with the same from a Thompson CF barrel and they tested to be the same in quality [hardness]. Savage recently did the same with their Cabelas ML's . They said they were exclusively for BP when everybody knew they were the same as their smokeless barrels. I think it's more about politics with the likes of Thompson and others than the quality of steel used ... I'm not convinced that a 45-70 H&R or Thompson barrel is made with better steel than a Thompson BP barrel or would be safer....I agree with MIke .. The unsafe element most all the time is the operator. Zen |
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Post by Jon on Feb 25, 2012 23:00:16 GMT -5
I agree to disagree If they say it is not safe for smokeless they are covered so I would feel they are not safe. There is a lot more to what makes a barrel safe than the material used.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2012 23:01:08 GMT -5
Superkirby
The way I'm looking at the conversions is that if you could
get a heavy contoured 45/70 barrel and convert it wouldn't you feel a whole lot safer..? I never have had 45/70 barrel that I could
compare to a DDBulberry Pacnor 45 but I'm quite sure they are like apples to oranges..........
Greenhorn
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Post by mike3132 on Feb 26, 2012 9:44:30 GMT -5
I had a person tell me he was shooting smokeless powder in his .50 Encore with factory barrel because someone told him it was the same steel as the rifle barrels. Hes said the load was a book Savage load and it blew up on the second shot. Very simple, until T/C or any of the other BP manufactures say there guns are safe to shoot smokeless powder dont be a fool and do it.
Im seeing more posts on here promoting the use of smokeless powder in BP guns. You guys who are doing this dont know who reads this board or how advanced they are in reloading. If someone got killed because they read it was safe it truly would be a tragedy.
From now on Im telling all mods to delete posts from guys who are promoting this practice. Mike
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Post by 10ga on Feb 26, 2012 20:19:37 GMT -5
A lot of the ML/CF difference is the "proofing". Most ML barrels are NOT proofed. Most CF barrels are. I've often wondered how many barrels fail to pass proof? Anybody have any idea on that? 10
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2012 20:26:24 GMT -5
+1 on 10ga. other than spain who regulates what is sold to the public as a safe firearm/muzzleloader. The ATF...?
Greenhorn
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2012 23:15:53 GMT -5
I had a person tell me he was shooting smokeless powder in his .50 Encore with factory barrel because someone told him it was the same steel as the rifle barrels. Hes said the load was a book Savage load and it blew up on the second shot. Very simple, until T/C or any of the other BP manufactures say there guns are safe to shoot smokeless powder dont be a fool and do it.
Im seeing more posts on here promoting the use of smokeless powder in BP guns. You guys who are doing this dont know who reads this board or how advanced they are in reloading. If someone got killed because they read it was safe it truly would be a tragedy.
From now on Im telling all mods to delete posts from guys who are promoting this practice. Mike I don't see anybody in this thread promoting shooting smokeless in BP barrels. I do see various opinons on the subject of safety issues which has been commonplace on this board in the time I've been here.... Everybody knows that opinions are like a....holes, everybodys got one. What's with the yellow letters? Zen |
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Post by mike3132 on Feb 27, 2012 11:37:08 GMT -5
I had a person tell me he was shooting smokeless powder in his .50 Encore with factory barrel because someone told him it was the same steel as the rifle barrels. Hes said the load was a book Savage load and it blew up on the second shot. Very simple, until T/C or any of the other BP manufactures say there guns are safe to shoot smokeless powder dont be a fool and do it.
Im seeing more posts on here promoting the use of smokeless powder in BP guns. You guys who are doing this dont know who reads this board or how advanced they are in reloading. If someone got killed because they read it was safe it truly would be a tragedy.
From now on Im telling all mods to delete posts from guys who are promoting this practice. Mike I don't see anybody in this thread promoting shooting smokeless in BP barrels. I do see various opinons on the subject of safety issues which has been commonplace on this board in the time I've been here.... Everybody knows that opinions are like a....holes, everybodys got one. What's with the yellow letters? Zen Zen, yellow means its a warning. Some of you guys are stepping over the line in a round about way. We simple dont want someone to get hurt. If this offends you then so be it but guys that are doing this will be dealt with. Mike |
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Post by superkirby on Feb 27, 2012 23:40:21 GMT -5
I hope you don't think that I was trying to imply that I thought it was safe or that I would try it. I assure you 100% that wasn't my intention.
I just wanted to make sure it was completely safe to use an APPROVED barrel assembly to shoot as a smokeless muzzleloader on my Encore.
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Post by willbird on Dec 12, 2012 10:09:59 GMT -5
I did email Shilen and ask about the steel they use in their Black Powder blanks, same as any other barrel blank. I doubt TC uses some special steel in the muzzle loader barrel's. That might required a whole different welding process to attach the lug for one thing, and the bluing might look different or require tweaks. The TC breech plug where you turn it 1/2 turn and pull it out, that uses what look like AR 15 gas piston rings may only be safe with fairly low pressure loads such as BP and the bulk BP analogs.
The brass cartridge IS a wonderful thing, and Ackley did prove you could fire a rifle that had it's locking mechanism weakened and the brass case would grab the chamber and still contain the pressure.
Also for experimental purposes I have often thought about putting a brass case INSIDE the ML barrel...no reason you couldn't...you could even fit the neck .002 smaller than the chamber and be able to seat a bullet in it from the muzzle end. You would need to pull it out now and then and clean everything. But then you could measure the solid head for expansion.....but that will happen at a higher pressure than any pressure trace I have looked at here on the board.
I have seen a few folks have managed to bulge barrels(more often called "ringing" in cartridge guns), once you do that you have reached the yield point of the material...but that is usually far lower than ultimate tensile strength of most "gun" steels.
For sure on an Encore I would stay on the mild side of the street due to the bbl dia.
Bill
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