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Post by miket81 on Dec 19, 2011 15:42:38 GMT -5
I got in a NULA smokeless MZ last year and am just now getting around to setting it up.
A friend gave me some 5744 that he used in his smokeless savage.
I have some harvester 44 and 45 sabots and have remington kleanbore primers.
I tried the 44 sabots and a 240 hornady.
I tried 42-44 grains of powder and it didn't seem like the powder was igniting right and the bullets were going in the target sideways (tumbling). Even at 25 yrds it shot a group of about 2ft.
The patch I ran had unburned powder on it.
Is my problem in the primer?
I am going to try and find some good 45cal bullets at the small local shop..
any other advice?
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Post by edwardamason on Dec 19, 2011 15:48:05 GMT -5
I got in a NULA smokeless MZ last year and am just now getting around to setting it up. A friend gave me some 5744 that he used in his smokeless savage. I have some harvester 44 and 45 sabots and have remington kleanbore primers. I tried the 44 sabots and a 240 hornady. I tried 42-44 grains of powder and it didn't seem like the powder was igniting right and the bullets were going in the target sideways (tumbling). Even at 25 yrds it shot a group of about 2ft. The patch I ran had unburned powder on it. Is my problem in the primer? I am going to try and find some good 45cal bullets at the small local shop.. any other advice? ______________________ Everything you just described sounds like your bullet sabot combo is not tight enough. Ive been toying with buying a NULA and doing my research. I talked at length to one of the gunsmiths at NULA about loads and their suggested load is 39 GR of V n-110 and the XTP 250 Gr with MMP short black sabots. They have had lots of great feedback on that load. FWIW I have never had good luck with the 44's in any of my BP applications. Especially when it comes to SMokeless Applications. They just don't seem to be tight enough going down to build pressure. |
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Post by pointman on Dec 19, 2011 15:50:45 GMT -5
The kleanbore primers are made for 777 not smokeless. Use a regular 209 primer. I use federal 209 primers and they work well.
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Post by dwhunter on Dec 19, 2011 15:58:32 GMT -5
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Post by miket81 on Dec 19, 2011 16:11:47 GMT -5
i'll try the fed primers first and see if that helps. VN110 is what I wanted to use but I was given 2 new #'s of 5744 so wanted to try it..
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Post by ohiobuckeye on Dec 19, 2011 16:41:51 GMT -5
I would use a CCI primer, Mel sets them up for a CCI. Use only a bullet with a Dia of 450 or better, if you use a Hornady XTP use the 451 or 452 dia and use a MMP or harvester sabot, my gun shoots best when I use SR4759 and Vit 110 is a close second.
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Post by dans on Dec 19, 2011 17:26:12 GMT -5
My NULA would not shoot good groups with the mmp sabots. I went to Harvester smooth black, 45 cal bullets, and a CCI 209m primer shooting 45 grains of 4759 and that combo shoots 1 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards.
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Post by fishhawk on Dec 19, 2011 17:51:27 GMT -5
The tumbling bullets are likely from blown sabots. Do like Ohiobuckeye said and use .45 cal bullets. Smokeless gun don't like bullets less than .05" less than the bore. Find a sabot that loads with 40-60lbs of pressure. Use harvester or mmp sabots.
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Post by tar12 on Dec 19, 2011 18:02:36 GMT -5
Keep the powder and ditch the sabots and the .429 dia .44 cal bullets and the Kleanbore primers. Primers are not causing the tumbling bullets but there are much better primer choices available for smokeless powders. A very loose fit is your main problem as it is not stabilizing the bullet for one and is allowing the gases to escape around the sabot. Go with .452-458 dia. bullets.
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Post by mrbuck on Dec 19, 2011 18:05:09 GMT -5
mike81...I have only used N110 with my NULA. Using Fed209a primers I experienced primers sticking under the little extractor although a test target (5 shots under 1'') sent with the gun used Fed209a primers. The load was 39.0grs. of N110, a 250gr. Parker Balistic Extreme, and a MMP short sabot. Because of the Fed. primer issue, I went to CCI209's. The 250gr. Hornady SST with a short MMP sabot shot as well as the Parker. The Barnes 250gr. Tipped ( flat base) with the MMP longer sabot shot just under 1 and 1/2'' at 100yds.---really not all that bad. This past Fall I tried 250gr. Bonded Shock Waves ,MMP short sabots, and 40.0grs.of N110. First two were touching but the third made it into a 1 and 1/4 inch group. Try starting with 42.0grs. of 5744 and a 250gr. XTP in a short MMP sabot to get on paper.
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Post by bugeye on Dec 19, 2011 18:06:01 GMT -5
I use 40 grains of vit 110 and a 250 grain parker, 2300fps and will shoot under an inch for 3 shots. i would wait about 10 minutes between shots
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Post by mrbuck on Dec 19, 2011 18:13:50 GMT -5
mike81...as the last post says wait at least 10 to 15 mins. between shots -more when it's over 70 degrees. especially IMO with N110.
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Post by miket81 on Dec 19, 2011 20:14:15 GMT -5
ok I am going to def going to try the 45 cal bullets. I am surprised the sabots aren't sealing as it def takes some pressure to seat them.
I am guessing either the fed or cci will work fine
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 19, 2011 20:53:40 GMT -5
Too much plastic between the barrel and the bullet just doesn't work right.  |
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Post by dans on Dec 20, 2011 9:05:16 GMT -5
Contrary to conventional loading wisdom on this board and contrary to my personal experience with smokeless muzzleloading in general, my NULA loads with very little pressure when seating the bullet/sabot combination. I am using the smooth black harvester sabot and a Barnes 225 grain XPB made for the 45 long colt. I would estimate the loading pressure at 10 lbs or so. When I loaded the first one I thought, "Oh.oh this won't fire." but it did. Tried it again just to see and the second hole cut the first one. Adjusted the scope and put 5 more in an inch at 100 yards. Am waiting for some real cold weather to see what happens then. I don't know why it is working but it is. BTW the rifle likes to be wiped between shots and I used a cooling rod because that thin barrel heats up quickly.
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Post by Indianahunter on Dec 20, 2011 9:12:48 GMT -5
My NULA would not shoot good groups with the mmp sabots. I went to Harvester smooth black, 45 cal bullets, and a CCI 209m primer shooting 45 grains of 4759 and that combo shoots 1 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Good advice here...! Mine shoots lights out with this combination. My current bullet is the Barnes .451" 275 GR XPB FB (460 S&W) |
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Post by miket81 on Dec 20, 2011 17:12:52 GMT -5
The harvester sabots I am using are the ribbed ones. Could that be part of the problem?
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Post by bugeye on Dec 20, 2011 20:54:11 GMT -5
I think this gun is also more difficult to"group" because of the weight. And also more sensitive to grip pressure. jmo
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 20, 2011 21:35:16 GMT -5
As for powders
N110
4759
5744
In that order are usually the most popular. I dont care for 5744 at all though in mine. Both 4759 (jug not can) and N110 are fine though. Typical Savage book loads of these powders are fine but usually a bit on the lighter side may give the best accuracy. 41gr-43 of N110 and upto 43-44gr of 4759 can produce some nice groups. Sub 41gr loads of N110 can be extremely accurate. That may sound mild but the NULA usually gets about 100fps more than a Savage with a similar load of N110 and a bit more with 4759 also.
Use CCI primers, preferably the mags but some folks do ok with the non mags. Melvin recommended the mags to me and so did the previous owner.
Sabots that have worked for me.
MMP short with smaller OD 45cal bullets like Parkers or Barnes.
Harvester Short blacks (smooths) for most other 45cal bullets.
MMP HPH-24s if the bullet is a bit longer such as the 275gr XPB can be used also.
Depending on the bullet you use, one of those will usually work great. I shoot mostly Parkers 275gr BEs, Barnes 45LC-225gr XPBs, Barnes 460S&W 451-275gr XPBs, Harvester 260gr PT Golds and the little 45-225gr FTX for practice/fun.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 20, 2011 21:54:24 GMT -5
Contrary to conventional loading wisdom on this board and contrary to my personal experience with smokeless muzzleloading in general, my NULA loads with very little pressure when seating the bullet/sabot combination. Mine can also. Some...well most of my loads go down the barrel much easier than the Savage but still go bang every time and it sure doesn't seem to hurt the groups at all. It actually seems like any of them that are really hard to load dont shoot well. |
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Post by howa on Dec 22, 2011 17:23:52 GMT -5
Contrary to conventional loading wisdom on this board and contrary to my personal experience with smokeless muzzleloading in general, my NULA loads with very little pressure when seating the bullet/sabot combination. Mine can also. Some...well most of my loads go down the barrel much easier than the Savage but still go bang every time and it sure doesn't seem to hurt the groups at all. It actually seems like any of them that are really hard to load dont shoot well. This is me too, I continue to be told it must be tight, tighter the better, I can load mine with one hand no problem, shooting sub MOA and it's gone boom every time so I just keep shooting it. Easy to load seems like a benefit to me. |
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Post by dannoboone on Dec 22, 2011 20:35:25 GMT -5
Hey NULA guys. Out of curiosity, what is the approximate length of
your breech plugs?
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 22, 2011 21:12:52 GMT -5
Hey NULA guys. Out of curiosity, what is the approximate length of your breech plugs? I never measured mine but these should give you a rough idea. Its pretty short compared to most. Click pic to enlarge it.    |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 22, 2011 21:48:42 GMT -5
howaYep the NULA is a bit odd in that respect but i use mostly N110 and bullets that obturate a bit easier. I bought a bunch of Traditions branded Parkers CHEAP. It gives the bullet a good swat in the butt and its likely part of the reason it doesn't seem to need as tight of a fit for best results. When i use the Barnes i do use a bit tighter fit and a light knurl. The 225gr XPB in a MMP Short is pretty good or lightly knurled a bit more in the Harvester short black. In the HSB it loads so loose im more concerned it might move off the powder a little. Part of it might be the slower twist too as far as the accuracy with a semi loose fit. Now with 4759 i did have a hang fire but i think i grabbed a non mag CCI by mistake and that one loaded REALLY easy. I really like the little 225gr XPB and 41-43gr of N110. Its a little screamer and you can swap out to the cheap FTX for yotes, varmints or blowing up water jugs. Its very pleasant to shoot compared to some of the loads.
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Post by miket81 on Dec 25, 2011 17:22:06 GMT -5
I hit a bigger local shop, and Cabelas and BP on Friday and none of them had VN110 or 4759.. So I'll have to make due with the 5744 for now.
I got Fed 209a and CCI 209mags
For bullets I got hornady FTX .452 225gr and am going to use the black Harvester Crush rib high pressure sabots that I already have.
I finally got to shoot some this after noon. I started with 41 gr with the cci-mag primer and did a sight in shot at 35yrds. Everything seemed to go ok.(finally a round hole)
I adjusted then shot 2 at 50 they were in the same hole. I moved to 100 and went to 42gr and all the shots i've made were inside an inch. I shot 2 with 43gr and the POI moved a couple left but the group was still good.
My crono is broke so don't know what the MV is like and if I am close to the upper end charge wise.. I might try the fed 209a's to see if anything changes..
I plan on in the future changing to vn110 but this seems to be working decently..
Thanks so much for everyones help..
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Post by edwardamason on Dec 25, 2011 20:37:40 GMT -5
Sounds like u have a winning load right there.
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