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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 10, 2009 13:39:47 GMT -5
Call it coincidence, bad Carma, or just plane bad luck as some one else just posted about this problem with BH209, but I just returned back home from a quite good friends house depressed, greatly disappointed and with more than $200 gone from my checking account. Got a call from my friend (at 7am) saying that his blued/walnut Encore 209x50 that he bought on my advice and then shot BH209 out of it again on my advice was rusted so bad it had to be seen to be believed. I dropped what I was doing and went over to his house. Sure enough the rust in his Encore barrel was so bad you could see it by just looking at the end of the muzzle. I had the presence of mind to bring with me my entire gun cleaning/maintenance kit and gun smithing tools. I removed the barrel and placed it in my portable vice and proceeded to give the barrel as cleaning that lasted over two and a half strait hours. I got the patches to come out about 95% still white and bore back to a mirror finish, but the pitting caused by the rust was so bad it was easily visible to the naked eye by simply holding the barrel up to the light and looking up it. My friend never once even hinted that I was responsible, he simply wanted to see if there was anything I could do to fix it. Because it is so close to hunting season in IL, I felt i had no choice but to buy him another 209x50 barrel. He said he will not order it until we go shooting together tomorrow, but I told him to order it now because I am 99% certain the rust will return, and NSS might not be open when we return home tomorrow and he will need that barrel asap as he planed on using it during shotgun deer season. For those wondering I did ask how long he let his Encore remain with a dirty bore having shot BH209 out of it, he said exactly 5 days in his basement that has a dehumidifier going 7/24 12 out of 24 hours a day and the Encore was stored in a fire proof Liberty gun safe with a large container of silicon desiccant also in the safe. He shot it on Tuesday of this week. I know he is telling the truth as he called me on Monday to ask if I wanted to go with him, but prior comitments would not allow this. So I am now the not so proud owner of a severely pitted .50 caliber Encore barrel. So I feel this proves beyond doubt that BH209 residue if left in your barrel WILL 100% RUST IT for certain. Bottom line either treat BH209 like any other BP sub and clean your barrel ASAP, or risk ruining it. Lastly is there any way I can salvage my new 209x50 barrel and remove the pitting? my gut is telling me quite strongly most likely NO!!. I will write a letter to the makers of BH209 just to see what they will or will not do for me. After all it says on the bottle and on their pamphlet advertizing BH209 as being NON-CORROSIVE, when clearly beyond doubt it IS NOT and will RUST your barrel. Ironic that the first and only (and hopefully last) firearm I have ever had to replace due to rust of any kind did not even belong to me. If this costly mistake educates and prevents others from suffering the same fate, then I guess it is not a total loss. It is really a GD shame as my friends Encore was real shooter. Live and learn, be well, Arthur.
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Post by whyohe on Oct 10, 2009 13:59:58 GMT -5
sorry to hear about that. but i think they might say( i hope I'm wrong) that the powder is noncorrosive but the ash will absorb moisture and that will rust the barrel. but maybe they will still help you!
this is good to have here so others that use it will not assume that non corrosive means wont rust! i feel that the only benefit is that the powder is non corrosive and wont lead to rusting as fast, and that the residue/ ash is softer and makes it easier to load a second shot and easier to clean. IMO the the ash being softer is absorbing moisture and is the problem. if they say different please let us know what they say!! this is good info.
P.S. whats the chance you could make it a .54 cal ML? i dont know if removing that much would weaken it too much. just a thought.
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Post by jhm on Oct 10, 2009 15:16:55 GMT -5
artjr338wm thanks for heads up. This is the second time that I read about BH209 and rust. I was definitely under the impression that I did not need to worry about corrosion with BH209. Considering the price and that it is corrosive I will be sticking with Swiss black powder.
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rogo
Button Buck
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Post by rogo on Oct 10, 2009 17:43:03 GMT -5
If one would only read the instructions about BH209 they would not have this type of problem. It state right on the jug "Blackhorn 209 IS NOT a bore protectant. Any residue left in barrel after firing can trap moisture depending on humidity conditions and we strongly recommend cleaning as soon as possible."
Also if you are going to use it you should go to (www.blackhorn209.com) and read more info about it. I use it all the time and have had no problems at all.
Apparently your friend has some moisture somewhere in the air that the gun was around. The soot in the barrel after firing BH209 will attract moisture and then you will get rust. Used properly you will not have that situation. I am afraid that's what Blackhorn CS will tell you.
Good luck and I hope it works out for you.
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Post by whyohe on Oct 10, 2009 18:24:20 GMT -5
from the buckhorn web sight
Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid residue. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which will not harm your muzzleloader. There is no need to clean your barrel immediately after use. However, as with all firearms, we recommend using at least one wet patch of solvent after shooting to protect your barrel from moisture.
but if you click on down load brochure this is what it says so you might have a case!http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/brochure.pdf
Immediate Cleaning Not Necessary Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid residue so there is no need to clean your barrel immediately after use. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which DOES NOT absorb moisture or harm your muzzleloader
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 10, 2009 19:17:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Whyohe, I will include that in my letter to Pioneer Powder. In a example of stark differences, I have a SST 338wm that some where between 10 and 15 shots it reaches its accuracy zenith and will put three shots into sub moa all the way out 400yrds and I have not cleaned that rifle in almost nine months, because once I get that rifle to shoot to its max potential I do not clean it until after I get turned down by all the states I apply for elk permits in. It has never exhibited even the slightest hint of rust.
I also have a Marlin 512, a Browning A-bolt slug gun, a NEF 920 Tracker, a Savage 116, and a M96 Swedish Mauser all have over the years gone anywhere from 3 to six months before being cleaned after being shot and none of them ever have rusted, so Im not buying that BH209 is not faaaaaaaar more prone to causing your bore to rust than Pioneer Powder's adds leads you to think.
I have also used BH209 in my own Encore, but I always swab the bore of any ML with a saturated patch of break-free, and then clean asap. But if you read all their adds and brochures they state BH209 is non-corrosive, the same way as regular smokeless powder is also described as non-corrosive. Im no lawyer but the term non-corrosive should not have a different meaning when used to describe BH209 VS smokeless powder.
Bottom line IMHO is either a powder will NOT contribute to or cause corrosion and there fore can be classified as non-corrosive or it will contribute to or cause corrosion and CAN NOT be classified as non-corrosive.
I can leave my M700 uncleaned for months even years after shooting reloads made with RL-19 with no ill affects what so ever and this is true of any properly stored firearm after it has fired loads using modern non-corrosive ammunition.
All I'm saying is in the context of the term NON-Corrosive as it applies to ammunition and powder, it can not in all honesty be used to described or applied to BH209 and they should change their marketing information accordingly.
I know that in Pioneer's pamphlets they do have a * after the term NON-Corrosive, but like most people, especially if they reload, they are going to take the term NON-CORROSIVE when used to describe BH209 to mean the same as it applied to modern smokeless powder.
Kinda like the term "Water-proof". If I buy any optics that are listed as being "water-proof" I think it is fair for me to assume they are 100% water proof and will remain that way if exposed to precipitation of any sort and not needing any special treatment besides keeping them clean, and should not leak if they are subjected to a heavy rain or snow. In other words you can not use the legal term 100% water proof to describe your optics if it only applies 90% of the time like "water proof only in light precipitation only and will leak if exposed to a heavy down poor" That simply would not qualify as being 100% water proof.
I think the same should apply to the term NON-CORROSIVE and BH209.
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Post by bteague on Oct 10, 2009 19:54:07 GMT -5
rogo You must be reading a different jug than i have.I even looked on the bottom.Billy
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 10, 2009 20:31:34 GMT -5
rogo I am compelled to agree with bteague. I actually have my jug of BH209 in hand as I type this and NO WHERE ON THE JUG does any caution exists about swabbing the bore of your ML asap after your done shooting. The only information concerning care and maintenance after using BH209 in you ML is on the right side of the jug and it states:
Quote: "RECOMMENDED CLEANING:When using Blackhorn 209 it is not necessary to clean your barrel immediately after use. Blackhorn will not cause corrosion like black powder and other substitutes. residue is easily removed with standard, non-water based cleaning solvents. We recommend B209 Solvent by Montana X-tream" End Quote.
So if any one were to buy a jug of BH209 and only go by the info on the jug listed by Pioneer Powder them selves, it would be easy to see how you could wind up with a rusty, useless and ruined bore.
As a matter of absolute fact the literature listed on my jug of BH209 states that BH209 is noncorrosive no less than three separate times and gos on to state BH209 will not corrode your bore like other BP subs.
But I will also admit that I will go on using BH209 in my Encore as I have in the past, I will just treat it like any other CORROSIVE BP sub.
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Post by lanenebraska on Oct 10, 2009 20:33:07 GMT -5
artjr338wm
I am sorry for your situation.
I have used BH209 since it was available, with no sign of rust at all. I use a SS Knight Disc Elite. Left it fouled for the entire Nebraska season, from sight-in in early November-Jan 31. NEVER cleaned it. Shot 5 deer. Left it loaded in the garage for 2weeks in a cheap walmart plastic gun case. Fired it into a doe at 45yards. Finally cleaned some time in Feb.....Not a speck of rust=mirror bore.
I've been out to the range this year(Sep-14). Fired about 25 shots. Haven't cleaned it yet....it's still in the cheap old gun case in my garage. And I'm not the least bit worried about it.
I don't own a gun safe or dehumidifier.
For me, BH209 is just the same as smokeless powder, Non-Corrosive. The extremely light residue left in the bore does Not attract moisture at all.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2009 20:37:36 GMT -5
that sucks. Im anal about cleaning and caring for my rifles so i clean them either right after im finished shooting or the next day.
Did you at lease get your $$$ worth and go with the Bergara barrel?
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 10, 2009 21:06:16 GMT -5
frontiergander, yes as amatter of fact we had to order a Bergara barrel as they were the only ones in stock. Tell me why you seem to think bergara barrels are of such high quality? I know nothing of them, but I know Europe has w well earned rep for making good firearms like my XDs.
Lanenebraska, My friends gun safe is stored in his 100% finished basement that is climate controlled ( dehumidifier on 7/24 4hrs on 4hrs off and is kept at a low humidity below 30%. He also owns over a dozen long guns, all in blued steel, and never has had any of them rust in the past. All I can tell you is exactly what I saw. Do you think it possible your ML is SS is a factor as my friends Encore was blued steel.
Judging from all that I have been reading about BH209 and rusting, your experience would seem to be the exception to the rule. Is there anything you can think of that you do or have done to your MLs different that might be a factor in you having no rusting problems?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2009 21:21:40 GMT -5
they have beautiful high quality work inside of them. Ive only owned one ( cva accura) and looking down the bore when it first came in was jaw dropping. Looks like a mirror. No burrs or anything. No rough spots. Just a well made barrel. The Accuracy again is superb. You'll enjoy that barrel a lot more over the original barrel he had. Your friend can also now shoot conicals. Have him take a look at www.thorbullets.com if he ever wants to play around with conicals. He'll more than likely need the .500" Dia thor but you never know until you size the bore.
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Post by davewolf on Oct 10, 2009 21:46:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the info: I'm a bit amazed that the rust appeared so soon. I've shot nothing but BH209 out of my Triumph and have cleaned it with only Dove soap mixed with hot water and plunged it. I then dried it with clean patches...broke it open and allowed it to dry thoroughly. (Knock on wood) I've shot it in cold weather this spring, during downpours of rain, so bad that I waited a day to shoot it and clean it. I even popped out the primer and left it sit-after opening the case for two-days till I could get out and hunt with it again. Since it's going to sit for a week, I did clean it with T/C's bore cleaner and cased it without the breech plug. Keep us updated, cause I love the stuff! Still have me scratching my head on this one. I've had it out in weather that ranged from the 40's into the high 90's and it hasn't failed me yet. Sorry to hear about all the problems. Have a great day! Dave
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Post by lanenebraska on Oct 10, 2009 22:45:57 GMT -5
ArtJr.
This may be hard for you to believe, but I know dozens and dozens of folks over on Huntingnet.com and ModernMuzzleloder.com that have my same experience--with or without Stainless barrels=No Rust At All. As a matter of fact, these accounts on Dougs board are the Only ones I've Ever heard about rust so far.
As far as my routine, I always start the season with a clean-oil free bore. Then I foul it with a few test shots. And leave it that way. I load up, then tape the end of the barrel/finger cot it. If I get doused with rain/snow, then I wipe it down, of course.
The Green Mountain barrels are very good quality steel as you know. And if the rusting thing was gonna happen on a regular base, I would expect the Non-Bergara=Old CVA/BPI Blued barrels to be the most susceptible to ANY moisture. Cause that was the case with my old CVA MagHunter.
Yes I am tough on my guns. To me they are just tools. I try to keep them all safe and functional. And the bores are always protected.
Maybe my Stainless is more resistant to rust?? But that still does not explain all the others with blued barrels that are also doing just as well....
To me, BH209 is a blessing. I also reload for 4 other rifles/shotguns, and none of these bores have ever rusted either.
I can't help thinking that there might have been some extenuating circumstances in the few instances that have been described by you and the others, that have caused your rifles to rust so quick......
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Post by sabotloader on Oct 10, 2009 23:31:48 GMT -5
Western Powders has changed their stance somewhat on BH-209 and corrosion. The powder itself is not the problem the soot left in the barrel can be. This is the label on the new bottles of BH-209 stating the new policy... In a recent email from Western Powders they indicated the same thing and said the labels have been changed to reflect their findings....
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Post by whyohe on Oct 11, 2009 5:07:10 GMT -5
i wonder why they have always stresseed NOT to use black powder solvents or water based solvents? i know no one wants water in a gun but yet we do it with BP,just why they really stress it with this. is there a reaction with water? did any one at a previos time use one of these prior to the shooting session that was left uncleaned?
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Post by sabotloader on Oct 11, 2009 15:08:59 GMT -5
General thoughts/information
If you call Western they will attest to this problem and from the information I got from them it is not being restricted just to blued guns in their instructions.
They have been seeing and hearing about this problem for several months now and have modified their instructions on the new bottles and their instructions at Western to notify people that this problem can happen if exposed to the right circumstances.
Don @ Western had a very detailed email that verified findings that the residule soot left by BH in the bore could attract moisture and in any unprotected bore is suseptible to rusting if moisture is being collected.
He did not give or estimate a 'time' that it might take to see these problems and I got the feeling it was happening in only a small number of cases, but as the popularity of BH increases those random cases will rise. The complaints and cases they have seen and recieved are a concern to them.
Also remember the the active ingredient in BH is not Nitrocellulose as in normal smokeless powders it is Nitrate ester.
He emphasized again the powder by itself is not corrosive.
And for my part - I think the powder is a great product, just to expensive for me to do much shooting with. And I would certainly follow Westerns new instructions if I were using it.
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rogo
Button Buck
Posts: 17
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Post by rogo on Oct 11, 2009 18:42:54 GMT -5
Well on the jug of Blackhorn 209 I have in my hand on the back jus under the load data it clearly states the following.
"Blackhorn 209 IS NOT a bore protectant. Any residue left in barrel after firing can trap moisture depending on humidity conditions and we stronly recommend cleaning as soon as possible."
My lot # is 0107098 purchased in August of this year. I can only say what it says on my jug of BH209. If it does not say that on your jug then I am sorry for sticking my nose into this thread.
Anyway regardless of what it says I respect my weapons and clean them after use each time. I never let them sit around until a later date. I thought everyone did the same. I am wrong about that I guess.
From now on I will simply read and make no further comments.
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Post by sabotloader on Oct 11, 2009 19:07:26 GMT -5
rogoHere is what you are talking about.... I am sure this has been difficult for Western Powders but I am glad they are trying to rectify the perception...
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Post by grouse on Oct 11, 2009 20:15:19 GMT -5
I'm lost as usual on this one. When did BH209 (Western Powders) ever not recommend a solvent patch run thru the bore after being done shooting?
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 11, 2009 20:33:39 GMT -5
Grouse, this is the only cleaning information that apeares on both mine and my friends jug of BH209:
Quote: "RECOMMENDED CLEANING:When using Blackhorn 209 it is not necessary to clean your barrel immediately after use. Blackhorn will not cause corrosion like black powder and other substitutes. residue is easily removed with standard, non-water based cleaning solvents. We recommend BH209 Solvent by Montana X-tream End Quote.
The newer jugs, ones you most likely have, recommend swabing asap after you finish shooting, ours as you can read did not.
Grouse, please reread my above post that contains the quote I listed in this post for a better understanding of my thoughts on this issue.
Regards, Arthur.
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 11, 2009 21:05:39 GMT -5
Rogo as well as others I did not start this subject in the intent of bashing BH209, (which BTW I still think is the best BP sub out there) starting arguments with anyone, or for any other purpose except educating my fellow members of this website to a potential problem if you use BH209 incorrectly. And I still welcome anyones and EVERYONES comments and thoughts on this matter. My only beef with BH209 is I wish they had from the start labeled all containers as they do now with the recommendation of swabbing after use. It would have saved me a fair some of $$$, as if the jugs my friend and i own were labeled as they are now, I would have been freed from any blame for my friends ruined barrel. As it stands I was the one who got my friend to not use and shelve the Pyrodex he had in abundance and give BH209 a try. I really raved (rightfully so) BH209 as the to end all BP sub that behaved ALMOST just like smokeless powder does in my 10ML-II. So I felt compelled to buy him a new barrel.
As I already said I PERSONALLY HAVE HAD ZERO problems using over 1&1/2 jugs of BH209 out of my blued and walnut Encore, but that is because I have in the past some 2000+ shots ago with my Encore using pyrodex pellets and 777 always without exception swabbed my Encores bore with a patch literally dripping with Brake-Free CLP the instant after I have fired my last shot of the day out of it and removed its B-plug. I then always clean my Encore asap after i get home, always the same day as shooting it. Unfortunately, my friend did not do this, he will in the future to be sure.
I also plan on STILL using only BH209 out of my Encore as it is that good.
Thanks to all for their thoughts and input on this subject I feel we have pretty much lade to rest. Bottom line, if you fallow directions and swab after your done using using BH209, you should have zero problems, if you do not, you just might wind up wishing you had.
Regards, Arthur.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2009 22:11:12 GMT -5
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Post by whyohe on Oct 12, 2009 6:26:36 GMT -5
Rogo, your comments are welcome here. if you had not said what you did we might not have looked further into it and found out that they changed their labels. even if some one purchased their jug after you it still might have the old label. some just might have older lots.
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Post by minst7877 on Oct 12, 2009 21:41:19 GMT -5
I have bottles of Blackhorn that are labeled both ways.
DC
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Post by reloader on Oct 20, 2009 14:27:00 GMT -5
They just started labeling them that way. When my brand new Omega rusted terribly after shooting BH209 and going by their BS claims of not immediately cleaning, my blood was boiling. I called Don and had a long talk. Don said they were going to have a meeting to discuss this issue and change their claims. A few months later it happened. Don was a real nice guy and sent me a box full of cleaning supplies even though I told him I didn't want a thing, he issisted. I was lucky enough to lap my barrel and get just about everything out but minor pitting near the breech. It still shoots fantastic, so I've just kept using BH209 and cleaning immediately afterwards. It doesn't foul like other BP subs and gives much better velocity, accuracy, and lower SDs as well. Good stuff, but a bummer they had to give false advertising in the beginning. I sent you a PM. You may be able to lap that Encore bbl and put it back in use. I've lapped several ML bbls, some were badly pitted and they all shot the same as before after lapping. You can't get all of the pitting out, but you can smooth them and get them back in action. I have a knight right now that a relative gave me to lap as he forgot to clean after shooting pyrodex Good Luck Reloader
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Post by ourway77 on Oct 21, 2009 5:45:01 GMT -5
You may want to run a tight fitting jag od brush with JB's and brush the crap out iof it. It may help with the accuracy but will never completly remove the pitting. I got a barrel once that a friend brought over for me to clean that was left uncleaned for a year. When I looked in that barrel I almost#@$% the worst I ever saw I used the afore mentioned method and it came clean but pitting was still there. Took it out and shot it. I was amazed it still shot quite good for a CVA (JUNK) So you may want to try it. What have you got to loose. You would think a compamy would put out some sort of notice after they found out they had a problem? Sill with any powder and BH-209 I still clean my barrel with each shot just before finishing sighting in to insure I don't have these sort of problems if I have to let it sit a day or two. Lou
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Post by dpoor65 on Oct 21, 2009 10:36:17 GMT -5
stop blowing smoke and by a savage smokless.....you will never go back....
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Post by randywakeman on Oct 21, 2009 14:34:01 GMT -5
It wasn't all that long ago that Triple Se7en was loudly touted as non-corrosive, or so close to non-corrosive that it is essentially non-corrosive. Even Sam Fadala reported this, and used "non-corrosive" in his headline: findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_48/ai_87413404/. Most people understand that Triple Se7en is water-soluble, and anything that "cleans up with just water" is likely to be excessively hygroscopic. Though very few people understand what Triple Se7en actually made of, even less people seem to care. All the ads that tout T7 as non-corrosive or low corrosive have long ago vanished, with the “water-only clean-up” remaining. Even though, BlackMag3 and American Pioneer are both easier to clean than T7, and neither has the crud ring / stuck breechplug slag that T7 is associated with. There are, of course, other problems—with APP / Shockey’s Gold being horribly inconsistent, and severe QC, production, and availability problems with Black Mag 3. Muzzleloading has been afflicted with all kinds of odd claims over the years, like the idea that “Bore Butter” can season a barrel. Enough barrels have been ruined with “all-natural” bore butter so that now most people know better. It is actually “Udder Balm,” used on cows with sore teats. It is cheap, though, and the “pine-fresh scent” apparently makes Pyrodex smell good? The whole “natural approach” may sound good, until you realize that oil itself is natural. I suppose if you bury a brontosaurus in your back yard and wait hundreds of thousands of years you’ll have “sweet crude.” Water is nasty stuff—it sinks ships, people drown in it, it rusts cars and most things made of metal. We have no problem using paint, though, or washing dirt off our automobiles. We clean our pistols, rifles, and shotguns after use, but somehow with muzzleloaders we want to cheat the system. Carbon steel rusts, and though we all admire “bluing” we forget what bluing really is: pretty rust. There is red oxide and black oxide, our pre-oxided carbon steel barrels are coated with the cosmetically superior form of rust. There really isn’t much excuse not to run a patch of Hoppe’s or Breakfree down a barrel that we claim to value. It takes only a few moments, and there is no water left to dry out or evaporate that we need to get out only so we can properly oil it and protect it. Stainless steel can certainly rust as well. Water heaters can rust through as well, and if there was ever an appliance designed to be used with water it would be a water heater. All anyone has to do is go to the gunshop and look at some used guns—you’ll find all kinds of rust, rust from using “non-corrosive” propellants and primers. There really is no such thing, that’s a term of art. Non-corrosive primers are corrosive, and so are the combustion by-products of all firearm propellants to a certain extent. Any residue in bores that is at all hygroscopic may have a corrosive effect. There is moisture content in all propellants, smokeless or otherwise. It’s not good to leave any propellant exposed to the air, even before it is burned—for that reason, reloaders put remaining powder right back in the bottle. I’m old enough and dumb enough to have rusted my fair share of things over the years. Too soon we grow old, too late we get smart. I like Blackhorn 209; I appreciate how consistent it is and that it is far, far less hygroscopic than other BP subs, it has an indefinite shelf life, doesn’t stick breechplugs or form crud rings. The days of cotton mouth from licking patches and breaking through fouling crud to be able to seat a sabot are long gone. But, I’m not about to consider any propellant the equivalent of gun oil or a proper bore protectant. Like another poster said, no firearms manufacturer instructs you not to clean your gun, nor does any propellant manufacturer. It isn’t that tough to run a patch of Hoppe’s down your bore when you are through shooting. After all, you are likely using the same rod that is already in your hand that you were going to seat your next sabot with. Do not pour powder into barrel, do not seat sabot, sub oily patch for sabot and clean barrel is something even I can understand. And, I’m not that bright, possessing the brain activity slightly above that of an amoeba, with an EEG that looks like a dial tone. If someone as amazingly sea-slug stupid as myself can learn how to run a Hoppe’s patch up and down a muzzleloader, than I believe most anyone else can as well.
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Post by reloader on Oct 21, 2009 15:42:01 GMT -5
That's really not the point Randy, the point is False Advertising. When a large powder company such as Western Powders says you don't have to clean your barrel after use because their powder will cause no harm....
Only after a bunch of shooters do exactly as they say and ruin rifles, do they do anything about it. They merely say "Oops, we're sorry" and change the label. No bbls were replaced, just a "We're sorry" and a label change.
It wouldn't bother me a bit if they would have told the truth in the beginning. I've shot Real black, Pyrodex, and 777 for years, common practice to clean immediately after use. With my smokeless Savage and the 75 or so other firearms I have, most have seen months w/o cleaning and none have rust or pitted bbls. Western makes claims that make everyone believe BH209 is as good as Smokeless and doesn't need cleaning immediately, then offers a BS "We're sorry about your brand new ruined bbl"
That's crappy any way you look at it.
I like the powder, but hate the BS way it was advertised in the beginning. If they would have just stated the truth, I wouldn't have ever pitted my new Omega.
Doesn't speak highly of their Customer Service either.
I bought a Sims recoil pad a couple years back that was made of bad materials. That crap leaked onto my brand new truck's seat. I called Sims and told them about it, they told me to take the truck to the Dealer I bought it from and give them their number. I drove to the dealer and dropped my truck off, drove away in a rental, they installed a brand new seat cover, and Sims picked up the tab. That's Customer Service!!!
Reloader
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