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Post by TGinPA on Nov 23, 2011 14:06:21 GMT -5
Pressure Trace: 2 different primers. I know everyone says that a Fed209A shotshell primer is hotter (increased brisance?) than a Win209 and I am sure there are numbers out there to support this. Just to see if it could shown with a pressure trace, at Al's suggestion, a test was set up tracing a medium-fast powder and “lighter-than-caliber” bullet from Richards archive to maybe help increase chances of seeing a difference between the 2. Results are shown below. Of interest, muzzle flash was significant on 3 out of 4 shots with the Win209 primer. Admittedly this is not much data. But, it shows a difference, at least in my barrel with this load under mild conditions. Would the difference be greater at say 10 degrees F.? How much would it lessen with a heavier powder charge, faster powder, heavier bullet? TG Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI Bluetooth model Trigger Sensitivity = 7, Strain Gage Voltage =4.88 Gage Factor =2.1). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (13 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .033 in. Sensor dist fm BP=.58in Bullet Diam.= .448in. Bullet Type = Hornady .452 200gr ftx resized to .448 unknurled. Sabot: None Wads:.06x.462 lubed fiber under lubed wool. Powder: H4198 58gr. Primer:Panel 1 Win209, 4shots. Panel 2 Fed 209A 3 shots Shot fm dirty barrel. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions.   |
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Post by rangeball on Nov 23, 2011 14:15:20 GMT -5
Very useful info, thanks  |
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Post by edwardamason on Nov 23, 2011 15:12:31 GMT -5
If you want to test primers for hotness Put patch on your jag and ram it down on a unloaded mlII then bust a cap. Remove patch and inspect. U should see some subtle differences in the two patches.
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Post by Richard on Nov 23, 2011 15:30:58 GMT -5
TG.....good information. On one occasion, I did a test, sans the pressure trace instrument on three different primers. I believe it was the Win. 209, The CCI 209M and the Fed. 209M. The velocities I recorded were so close to one another and groups on the target were so similar that I would feel comfortable interchanging them during a group. Your results show higher velocities for the Federals. I might have to re-visit that test  Richard |
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Post by TGinPA on Nov 23, 2011 15:43:39 GMT -5
Richard: I am not surprised at what you saw. Ignition differences would be predicted to narrow – maybe even disappear, if the load generated enough pressure. Do you remember what the load was?
Was it cold?
TG
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Post by esshup on Nov 23, 2011 16:02:37 GMT -5
Since we are talking about shotgun primers, my testing, in 1997 showed the same thing, but in a shotgun load. The Fed 209A primers being the only thing changed in the load, and it was tested against the CCI 209M primers in a test barrel. The Fed 209A showed over a 100 fps jump, and right at 2,000 PSI increase in chamber pressure. That was with a load of 37.5g of Blue-Dot behind a 1 5/16 oz. payload of shot. Everything else about the loads tested was identical, even the number of firings that the hulls had, (once fired) and they were fired that first time in the same gun.
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Post by ET on Nov 23, 2011 16:23:26 GMT -5
TGinPA
Again nice traces and interesting results.
Hope you won’t mind a simple question to confirm my interpretation is correct.
Sensor dist fm BP=.58in -- I take it this references the strain gauge location.
Ed
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Post by TGinPA on Nov 23, 2011 17:20:35 GMT -5
Ed: Correct about gage distance fm. face of BP. Out of curiosity, I placed this after I figured out how to fabricate raw gages which cost a fraction of what RSI supplies. I have compared the readings with this gage and the old one placed at 1.1in. Readings they give are virtually identical readings on my barrel.
TG
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Post by fishhawk on Nov 23, 2011 18:03:35 GMT -5
What I really notice is the much lower ES with the Feds.
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Post by ET on Nov 23, 2011 18:26:39 GMT -5
TGinPA
WOW that’s an accomplishment in itself to make your own strain gages. I’m impressed with that accomplishment.
With my previous barrel I found no difference with 1-gauge placed in the center of the powder load and one out front. As there is no chamber as seen with CF rifles the bore itself appears to become the chamber but don’t know the actual dimension (length) of said chamber for accurately measuring pressure. My next gauge placement I plan to keep it more to the front of the powder load than centered.
As you are including the 50 with your testing I look forward to comparing test results down the road. Here hopefully we can establish a standardization of some kind.
Again nice accomplishment with making your own strain gauges.
Ed
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Post by Jon on Nov 23, 2011 19:03:54 GMT -5
TGinPA. Ever thought about selling your strain gages?
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Post by tar12 on Nov 23, 2011 19:43:29 GMT -5
This comes as no surprise at all as all of the articles and tests that I have read in the past provided the same results. My own less scientific tests over the chrono bear this out as well. When I switched from the MMP to the HBCR when shooting the BO there was a gain of 150 fps. Thanks TG for proving this out once again...
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Post by cowhunter on Nov 25, 2011 16:40:42 GMT -5
Good information. I bought a case of "Cheddite" 209 primers (made in France), several years ago for use in loading shotgun shells. Hey, they were cheap. Has anyone used them in their muzzleloader? Do primers lose anything when stored for a few years?
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Post by jims on Nov 25, 2011 17:00:19 GMT -5
I have used about all types. I prefer CCIm, Feds and Win in that order.
I have used primers and powders that were decades old. No problem but they were kept in stable temperatures and out of direct sunlight. I would not have concerns under those conditions.
If an issue use them more for range work, fresh ones for final tune up and for hunting.
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Post by ET on Nov 25, 2011 17:19:01 GMT -5
Good information. I bought a case of "Cheddite" 209 primers (made in France), several years ago for use in loading shotgun shells. Hey, they were cheap. Has anyone used them in their muzzleloader? Do primers lose anything when stored for a few years? Cowhunter The Cheddite primer is my choice for usage in my 10ML-II. From past rating posted it is the lower end of magnum primers. Never had any storage problems yet. Ed |
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Post by Richard on Nov 25, 2011 20:20:08 GMT -5
TG........I looked high and low thru my notes and could not locate that range session. I know it is there, just can't find it  One of these weeks I will definitely do it again. Richard |
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Post by edge on Nov 28, 2011 14:15:59 GMT -5
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Post by fishhawk on Nov 28, 2011 14:51:40 GMT -5
Go figure, maybe it's because Richard used N110 as a booster?
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Post by Richard on Nov 28, 2011 18:15:54 GMT -5
Edge...........You are the FINDMASTER! I must have gone thru my book 2 or 3 times looking for that information...Thanks.
Richard
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One of these weeks I will definitely do it again.
