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Post by TGinPA on May 17, 2011 13:12:13 GMT -5
Pressure Trace: PN45 SR4759/H4198 8/54gr. 200xtp Testing SR4759/H4198 10/52gr with a 200xtp bullet gave a pressure trace suggesting sabot disruption.The powder load was then adjusted to SR4759/H4198 8/54gr and that resulted in the trace below: Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 0, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 68 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (13 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .031 in. Sensor dist. fm. BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .40in. Bullet Type = Hornady 10mm 200gr XTP unknurled. Sabot: Harvester Smooth Blue. Powder: All Traces: SR4759/H4198 8/54gr. Primer :Fed 209A Shot fm dirty barrel. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions. Of interest was the slow primary pressure wave rise time and peak pressure approximating 30kpsi at an average velocity over 2750 fps. These numbers suggest that for maximal velocity without sabot disruption, the primary might be increased even more, particularly if a Barnes 195bx bullet is substituted. The low peak pressure may indicate temp sensitivity of this load in cold weather. But the SR4759 booster may help minimize that effect. A moderate secondary pressure spike was present. Whether that spike adversely affects accuracy will require further testing. IMO, with a SR4759/H4198 duplex for maximum velocity without sabot disruption, 8 grains of that booster may be close to max for a 200gr xtp bullet. TG  |
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Post by dennis31 on May 17, 2011 13:29:15 GMT -5
savage shooter,
Have you found your groups tighter/ more accurate with the 4759/4198 vs 4759/H322?
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Post by rangeball on May 17, 2011 13:56:52 GMT -5
Or the N110/H4198 that was traced?
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 17, 2011 14:05:49 GMT -5
savage shooter, Have you found your groups tighter/ more accurate with the 4759/4198 vs 4759/H322? Not so much more accurate/tighter but poi stable and more reproducible from session to session for me so far. AND good speed. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 17, 2011 14:07:24 GMT -5
Or the N110/H4198 that was traced? I have not shot the N110 boosted load (but will soon) and know that "shooter" intends to shoot them both this week also see how they compare. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 17, 2011 14:20:03 GMT -5
Also note the Velocity and Pressure ES of this load. More testing to verify and I like the slow to rise long curve.
The best grouping load so far has been at 9/53 using the 195bx as used on the targets above. I will bet this would reduce the 2nd spike and would expect peak pressure to hit 32.5kpsi range, this would shorten the "time to peak" from the .39ms to about .37ms.
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Post by deadeye on May 17, 2011 14:46:46 GMT -5
mark,i am very impressed with your work & your attention to poi stabilty within session to session with varying winds & temps/conditions-not easy to seperate & evaluate in a short time. potential load developers should take notes  |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 16:06:06 GMT -5
SS,
Thank you !!! I thought I was going to have to by some h322 in the morn after reading Herman's post. On the 110/4198 trace
the pressure dops to zero and builds again before bullet out the barrel happens compared to at least 12k in the 4759/4198. Could you give us a little insight of whats going on there? You seem to have a great understanding on deciphering traces and how to tweek loads to manipulate the traces to more desirable
ones. Great stuff!!!
Keep on Tweeking,
Greenhorn
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Post by ET on May 17, 2011 16:43:20 GMT -5
Just thought I would mention an observation, one I plan on further monitoring even when I do my own testing. It appears that the lowest secondary response occurs when the peak pressure is achieved with .3ms - .34ms.
I would love to see what the OBT really has to say about this load.
For utilizing the OBT you need a reasonably accurate case length measurement. Here the base of the bullet can be unutilized. My approach for trying this will be as follows.
My ramrod basically sits flush with muzzle.
For a given bullet I will place the loading jag on the bullet and measure the amount of bullet protruding from the loading jag. Then when I seat a load I will measure the ramrod protruding from the muzzle. With the second measurement I will subtract the bullet protruding height I previously recorded for that bullet. This should give a good representation of Case Length.
As for barrel length I will be using 22” as this is the measurement from the BP to the muzzle that is a true representation of useable barrel length.
Not trying to be smart here but would enjoy comparing OBT results also with the 45 down the road if the same approach is used.
Ed
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 17, 2011 18:31:41 GMT -5
SS, Thank you !!! I thought I was going to have to by some h322 in the morn after reading Herman's post. On the 110/4198 trace the pressure dops to zero and builds again before bullet out the barrel happens compared to at least 12k in the 4759/4198. Could you give us a little insight of whats going on there? You seem to have a great understanding on deciphering traces and how to tweek loads to manipulate the traces to more desirable ones. Great stuff!!! Keep on Tweeking, Greenhorn The 4759 under H322 is a good load also.....it is a very accurate and consistent load......don't discount it.......we just started this faster powder duplex thought to see if we could get our burn rates to truly fit these low weight / low inertial resistance bullets. There are no insights into this process most is guess and hope but with a bit of logic on the side of safety. Strictly just guessing here but think the N110 trace is seeing some barrel harmonics, I do think this load would be a better load at a ratio like 8/52. This would raise working pressure about 1.2kpsi is what I have experienced with these faster powder duplexes. As far as the 4759 load at 8/54, I shot it some and did not get the accuracy that I get from 9/53, it is a bit low pressure at 29.8kpsi......but what you are not seeing is a trace TG did for us at 10/52 which blew a sabot and jumped pressure up to over 33K.......now some will say you can't blow a sabot at just 33K......well yes you can........ if the sabot gets hit with a quick on and off of 33K it will stand it just fine if the barrel is not to hot......BUT hit the sabot with the same 33K but for a longer period of time under pressure and the sabot can let go........there is not a line in the sand as to how much pressure a sabot can take....a lot of variables play into this....... With the 4759 booster the 8/54 hits about 29.8kpsi and the 10/52 hits 33K now both of these are 62gr loads but over 3k difference in pressure, this is what duplexing brings to the table when you need to tweak pressures. Envision the 4759 8/54 still appears to still be burning at the end of barrel by looking at the trace......now raise that pressure 1500psi by going to 9/53 and you can imagine that this should burn up the end of the load....at least this is how I guess and hope to refine loads......sometimes it works and sometimes it leaves you sitting alone in a dark place. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 19:41:24 GMT -5
So the 110/4198 was a full burn? Is that what the eff% value mean? Anyway, i'm kinda getting it. How are you coming up with total grain weight ? Is that coming from a single powder max load ,then breaking it down with different ratios of different burn rate powders. That's the way i'm seeing it in duplexing.
With TG "Dick TRACEY" tracing all these loads this stuff is cutting "EDGE" stuff,lol.
Thanks again SS,
Greenhorn
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 17, 2011 19:45:17 GMT -5
So the 110/4198 was a full burn? Is that what the eff% value mean? Anyway, i'm kinda getting it. How are you coming up with total grain weight ? Is that coming from a single powder max load ,then breaking it down with different ratios of different burn rate powders. That's the way i'm seeing it in duplexing. With TG "Dick TRACEY" tracing all these loads this stuff is cutting "EDGE" stuff,lol. Thanks again SS, Greenhorn Total starting grain weight can come from several places to get an idea to start from i.e. reloading manuals, quickload estimates, and known traces are the most reliable for me. Never go on hunch or pure guess unless all your life/health insurance are for sure current..... |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 21:05:41 GMT -5
I will let you all "shoot it first" and would never do ANYTHING concerning these guns unless I read it here first,period. I have great trust in most everything that comes from here, anybody that would buy and use a smokeless ml without acces to DOUG"s
is missing the boat . In Doug's I trust when it comes to this stuff and you all are the heart of it. Thanks again,
Greenhorn
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Post by TGinPA on May 19, 2011 14:30:21 GMT -5
Pressure Traces:pn45 duplexing H4198 and 200gr bullets with 3 different boosters.I have been tracing some of the loads that Savage Shooter has posted on this thread. These traces are FYI and for comparison between boosters for those who might be interested in development of hunting or target loads for 200 grain bullets using H4198 as the primary powder. These loads seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions. Same setup as in tracings above. Barrel temp 63-68 degrees F. Panel 1) 4759/H4198 9/54 200xtp. Harvester smooth blue sabot. Fed209 primer. Panel 2) 4759/H4198 9/54 200xtp. Harvester smooth blue sabot. Fed209 primer. Panel 3) 5744/H4198 9/54 200xtp. Harvester smooth blue sabot. Fed209 primer. Panel 4) 5744/H4198 9/55 200xtp. Harvester smooth blue sabot. Fed209 primer. Panel 5) n110/H4198 7/54 200sw. Harvester smooth blue sabot. Fed209 primer. For panel 5, I ran out of 200xtp bullets. For some reason, they are not easy to find online. For that panel, I used a 200gr 40cal. Shockwave bullet which loaded with about the same seating resistance.     
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Post by dennis31 on May 19, 2011 18:14:53 GMT -5
Nice shooting  . The shot on the right on the 200 yd target was that shot 1,2 or 3? Are you still trying to get the pressure higher on this load? |
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 20, 2011 6:58:17 GMT -5
Nice shooting . The shot on the right on the 200 yd target was that shot 1,2 or 3? Are you still trying to get the pressure higher on this load? It was shot #1 and yes it concerned me, not sure yet what to make of it, will take more first shot shooting to tell what it means. Could have just been me..... |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 7:00:11 GMT -5
Nice!!!
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Post by TGinPA on May 20, 2011 12:18:13 GMT -5
Pressure Trace: One more duplex with H4198. Load: n110/h4198 5/56gr 200sw unknurled. Harvester smooth blue sabot. fed 209 primer. barrel temp 68F. Shooter wanted to see this. I am posting it because it is so close to the others in terms of velocity and trace shape, showing that there are multiple ways of reaching the same end-point, even with the same two powders in slightly different ratios. Setup: As above. This load seemed safe in my barrel under test conditions but may not be so under other conditions in other barrels. Increasing the H4198 to 57gr caused sabot disruption.At jeremylongs request below, I have added a second trace of h4198 62gr. 195bx from 12-17-2010. It was the first trace I recorded and does not have a velocity recording TG   |
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Post by jeremylong on May 20, 2011 14:40:03 GMT -5
TGinPA - do you have a straight 62 grain load of 4198 that you could post here? Just to show the benefits of the duplex. Maybe it is not needed but I thought it may interesting/educational to have it here.
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Post by shooter on May 20, 2011 14:54:28 GMT -5
Here some more targets i shot today mark. NOTE.I had some chrono trouble today so no reading. First up was the 8gr 4759 and 54gr h-4198 I had some wind 6-10mph. group size 2.8 inches 200 yards  Next up was 9gr 4759 and 53gr h-4198 6-10 mph wind 200yards group was 4inches.  Next up was 8 gr n110 and 52g h-4198 This was shot with a different PAC-nor.group was 4 5/8  Next up was 7gr n110 and 53gr h-4198 I let a friend of mine shoot this load he shot it great.I let him shoot three shot then i told him we was going to make a scope adjustment then after we adjusted the scope i let him shoot 2more shot They was about a 1inch3/4 apart .Note all these was shot at 200yards.Note i had 1 shot i was keeping to take to 100yrd to see how high it shot.  Next up was 5grn110 and 56gr h-4198 this was shot with the PAC-nor that shot the 8/52 load.Note 200yrd  Went back to a 100yrd and see how high the 7gr n110 and 53 gr h-4198 and here it is.  Sorry guys for all the tape every were.I just got lazy at the range today. |
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Post by dave d. on May 21, 2011 20:15:21 GMT -5
:)goods shooten bud looks like 7/53 has some promise.
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. The shot on the right on the 200 yd target was that shot 1,2 or 3? Are you still trying to get the pressure higher on this load?