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Post by TGinPA on May 5, 2011 16:34:53 GMT -5
Pressure Traces: PN45 and 4759(metal can) Over some time, I have been collecting data on 4759 as a single with different weight bullets. Perhaps someone may be interested in using this powder as a cold weather single in a hunting load and would be interested in what can be expected pressurewise. Also of interest is the relative absence of secondary pressure spikes as might be expected from this relatively fast burning powder. Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 1, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 66-68 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (13 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .031 in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Trace 1: Bullet Diam.= .40 in. (10mm) Type = Hornady 200xtp. ,unknurled. Sabot: Harvester Smooth Blue. Powder: 4759 50gr. Trace 2: Bullet Diam.= .40 in. (10mm) Type: Hornady 200xtp unknurled. Sabot: Harvester smooth blue. Powder:4759 45gr. Trace 3: Bullet Diam.= .448in. Type: Hornady 250ftx (resized) Wads: Lubed Wool over Lubed Fiber. Powder: 4759 54gr. Trace 4: Bullet Diam.= .448in. Type: Hornady 250ftx (resized) Wads: Lubed Wool over Lubed Fiber. Powder: 4759 50gr. Trace 5: Bullet Diam.= .448in. Type Hornady 250ftx (resized) Wads: Lubed Wool over Lubed Fiber. Powder: 4759 45gr. Primer :Fed 209A (all loads) Shot fm dirty barrel. These loads seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions. TG      |
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Post by tar12 on May 5, 2011 17:01:43 GMT -5
Accuracy of the FTX vs. the XTP?
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Post by dennis31 on May 5, 2011 17:03:18 GMT -5
36-38K right at the top for sabots, but 27-2800fps impressive  |
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Post by Jon on May 5, 2011 17:21:51 GMT -5
I'm glad to see you haven't stopped testing. What seems interesting to me is the secondary pressure spike. Which I must say some of the much more experienced than I seem to not to be concerned about. I can't help but feel ( and this from some one not so experienced as most) this must have some effect on accuracy and safety. You are showing a very much reduction in the secondary spike. What is your and others input on this? Especially since from what I see better accuracy is achieved sabotless which takes the extra questionable safety of a sabot out of the picture. I feel we are approaching another stage in smokeless m/l's and really enjoy seeing the people that are putting all the effort and don't forget money into this effort. If there is anything I can do to help just ask if I can I will.
Jon
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 18:16:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the info on 4759... This powder has caught my attention for a single powder load in my 45.... So far I've found 45 gns to be a little more accurate than 50 grains. Next time out I plan on trying 47-48gns. I'd like to get around 2750fps without any chance of blown sabots.
Zen
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Post by TGinPA on May 5, 2011 19:06:09 GMT -5
Jon: Thanks for the kind words. All who post on this board get most of our satisfaction from our perceived contributions to it and I am no exception. Where I have problems is when I am asked to trace powders that I don’t have and probably would never use beyond a few grains used for testing. Even if I were to have access to all powders (which in many cases is not so) I would then be stuck with something of value which I feel uncomfortable wasting. In terms of what is spent on this hobby, cost of attendance at a couple of MLB baseball games would more than cover what I spend on supplies in a year. I had sort of hoped that there would be more doing Pressure Traces to take up the slack and provide some cross checking and standardization. Apparently it is not to be. Maybe it is too much work or there isn’t as much of a need or interest as I thought there would be.
Tar12:I have been told that Richard has done some work with 4759. As for me, until I began to test it, I had thought it too fast for sabotted light bullets and likely to build too much pressure before reaching reasonable velocities in heavier unsabotted bullet use. Pressure Tracing suggests that neither may be the case. It has been my impression that if one has a choice between a slow and a fast powder to achieve a given velocity in a safe pressure range, the faster powder will give better groups. But, I haven't done enough to give an assessment of the grouping potential of 4759 as a single in 45 cal barrels, sabotted or unsabotted. It certainly has potential (IMO, particularly for sabotless with bullets heavier than 200gr)and may be relatively temp insensitive.
TG
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Post by tar12 on May 5, 2011 20:03:21 GMT -5
TG,
I to wish there were more trace contributions as it would provide invaluable insight. Thanks for continuing the pressure traces as it is most certainly appreciated!
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Post by dave d. on May 5, 2011 20:05:37 GMT -5
:)tg great work and thanks for all your pt info its very important for building safe loads. From these traces it looks like 4759 needs to be tested more. Might have to give it a try myself. I'll be looking forward to some groups.
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Post by Richard on May 5, 2011 20:49:05 GMT -5
TGinPA...........Nice work. Yes, I did some testing with 4759, 5744 and N-110 as singles. Of course it is hard to compare since the results on Jon's PT unit I was using, gave what appeared to be lower pressure results than what you have achieved. All three of them however, produced those "high" initial spikes. None of them in the 50 and 55 gr. loadings gave accuracy results worth pursuing  And to boot, the duplex and triplex loadings produced similar velocities with some six to eight thousand PSI less pressure. For me, it was a "no brainer?"------------------If you want high velocity: use a duplex or triplex  I also notice that while you are doing these pressure traces, you do not show accuracy? I would think correlating pressure along with velocity and accuracy would be in order......No? The pressure trace unit is going back to Jon very shortly. I am at a point where, between your traces and mine, I am confident none of my loads are "high pressure!" I look to my chronograph readings to tell me what I need to know. Richard |
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Post by tar12 on May 5, 2011 21:14:47 GMT -5
It could be Richard that many could care less about using a duplex or triplex. Knowing the pressures on given singles gives a reference point for those that choose not to go the duplex or triplex route. I would like to see all singles wrung out. ;D I would like to also see some of your loads compared where the numbers are suspect.The more info. the better!I would also like to see several people running traces on the common powders we use..if I only had more time...I surely would!
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Post by Dave W on May 5, 2011 21:40:58 GMT -5
Great info TG, thanks for the time and effort!
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Post by ET on May 6, 2011 4:23:24 GMT -5
TGinPA
Nice job of collecting data.
It takes a lot of time to do all this and prepare it for presentation to the Board.
Also looking at the number of your traces I have saved to a separate file for future reference you have been a busy individual.
Have a little patience with me for getting my unit up and running.
Hope to pick up my refurbished laptop this evening and install the RSI program.
Then check to see if all the components are communicating.
It will prove interesting to compare results between the 45 and 50 in some common load areas.
Kind of wish I wasn’t on a job that is currently running 7-days a week. It’s one of those rush jobs that they initiate an order today but wanted it yesterday and expect it tomorrow. Some people here could take a lesson from your organization skills.
Anyway time to shortly head out for another day and earn a paycheck.
Ed
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Post by TGinPA on May 6, 2011 8:15:00 GMT -5
Richard:
Yes, the pressure data has limited meaning without accuracy data. But it does provide invaluable insight in terms of safety and what is happening in a barrel even without accuracy data. For me, just making the PT apparatus work requires my maximum concentration. My setup is designed to eliminate any distractions. From the time I weigh a load until a PT measurement is recorded is programmed. Every step is the same, every time. If not, I make mistakes and one mistake can ruin my day. There are a lot of bulged barrels out there attesting to this fact. Adding the steps necessary for maximal accuracy while making PT measurements is more than I believe I can handle. I try to rationalize by thinking that there are lots of really good marksmen on this board who are vastly better than me, who can better wring out a good load, who use PT data as a time saver, and for “peace of mind”. Though I do have access to several ranges where I could do both PT and target shooting simultaneously, it is weather dependant, time consuming to get there, set up, and shoot. In such an environment, I feel rushed and easily distracted by social interaction. I can either pressure test or target shoot reasonably well. I don’t have the mental capacity to do both together as well as I can do them separately, and alone.
TG
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Post by pposey on May 6, 2011 15:25:33 GMT -5
were you using the Mag fed 209? pressure might be lower if using a standard primer,
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Post by TGinPA on May 6, 2011 16:30:06 GMT -5
209A. After a misfire with 4198 several years ago, It's all I use.
No problems since - yet.
TG
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Post by Richard on May 6, 2011 16:51:48 GMT -5
TGinPA..............You mention: "There are a lot of bulged barrels out there attesting to this fact" Correct me if I am wrong but the majority of bulged barrels are the result of double charging or at least adding an additional bullet...........NOT high pressure loads :- Tar..........Yes, it could be? Then again I am only providing information for those that DO care? My feeling is why shoot a high pressure load that will kick more and cause more strain on the barrel, action, BP, bolt face, firing pin etc when the alternative is to duplex and get the same or higher velocity with less pressure  OK, I can understand the KISS theory to a point. However, how many times during the course of a day hunting are you reloading your rifle "under pressure?" Your loading prior to leaving the truck or camp is a no pressure loading. In 95% of the cases, you will only be taking one shot at your quarry. If a follow up or dispatch shot is necessary, a "single" which produces the same relative velocity/accuracy can be used for that purpose? Be that as it may, each individual can use what he or she is comfortable with. I am simply pointing out the mechanics of the game. Re; "I would like to also see some of your loads compared where the numbers are suspect."  What loads are we talking about with suspect numbers Tar? Richard |
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Post by pposey on May 6, 2011 20:06:36 GMT -5
a reg primmer might slow down the burn with 4759, I've never had a missfire with one and 4759 unless the sabot was so loose is was sad.
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Post by Chris Champion on May 6, 2011 20:22:00 GMT -5
However, how many times during the course of a day hunting are you reloading your rifle "under pressure? Richard, haven't you read tar's hunt reports? We all know he likes to stack em up 3 or 4 at a time. I recall a "Thanksgiving Day Massacre" post from a few years ago. Now that's high pressure reloading ;D |
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Post by jims on May 6, 2011 21:07:13 GMT -5
Chris: ;D I think the pressure is on the deer and not Tar.  |
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Post by tar12 on May 7, 2011 7:38:37 GMT -5
Richard,
My "suspect" numbers comment was in regards to your pressure trace PSI results not lining up with TGs or RBs numbers in some cases. All I was saying is that the more traces we have the better picture we will get of the true nature of the beast.In fact all of the numbers from you guys are suspect to me at this point.Which are correct? I am taking notes and compiling data. I was not trying to bust you out on anything. Hunting pressure? I do not know what the hunting is like in some parts if the country but here there are many times that the realization that I have to deal with butchering them all is the only thing that keeps me from going on a ramrage! ;D
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Post by Richard on May 7, 2011 16:57:23 GMT -5
OK, I see what you mean!
Richard
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Post by dennis31 on May 8, 2011 16:03:05 GMT -5
got a chance to get to the range for an hour before visiting mom. shot 48gn 4759 shots 1+2 5min between loading 15min break 3+4 5min between loading 10min break then shot 5 no swabbing between shots. Saw some familiar numbers as the other day with the 11/54 4759/H322. I dont seem to get as high velocities as some of you guys are getting but POI was almost exactly the same as 11/54 duplex with an average veocity of 40fps less. So i went back and looked at some notes from winter and there was a day 32F with the 50cal and had some veocities 42gn 2041 2048 2051 43gn 2067 2063 2076 44gn 2113 2096 2096 comparing with todays veocities with the 45 4759 seems to have a common property with reloader7 (small deviations in veocity) which was my favorite powder in the 50cal.   |
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Post by pposey on May 9, 2011 7:22:13 GMT -5
Nice groups all around,,, how do the sabots look compared with the different loads,
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Post by dennis31 on May 9, 2011 11:28:26 GMT -5
Petals and skirts looked the same, bases of the single look a little more flattened out than the duplex.
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Post by GMB54-120 on May 14, 2011 15:42:31 GMT -5
I really like the simplicity of a single using 4759 and the low ES/SD. When i finally get a 45cal, i will have to give it a try. I shoot a lot just for enjoyment, so the KISS theory goes a long way with me even if its not the fastest thing going. Im curious how well the new Nosler 200gr would perform "on paper" instead of the 200gr XTP.
The peak pressure with 45gr looked ok and the rest of the curve IMO is not bad at all.
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Post by 500cadillac on Oct 30, 2011 14:57:19 GMT -5
Are the traces on this page using metal or plastic can 4759?
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Post by TGinPA on Oct 30, 2011 15:29:58 GMT -5
Metal.
TG
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And to boot, the duplex and triplex loadings produced similar velocities with some six to eight thousand PSI less pressure. For me, it was a "no brainer?"------------------If you want high velocity: use a duplex or triplex 
OK, I can understand the KISS theory to a point. However, how many times during the course of a day hunting are you reloading your rifle "under pressure?" Your loading prior to leaving the truck or camp is a no pressure loading. In 95% of the cases, you will only be taking one shot at your quarry. If a follow up or dispatch shot is necessary, a "single" which produces the same relative velocity/accuracy can be used for that purpose? Be that as it may, each individual can use what he or she is comfortable with. I am simply pointing out the mechanics of the game. 
What loads are we talking about with suspect numbers Tar?
