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Post by TGinPA on Feb 18, 2011 13:04:08 GMT -5
Pressure Trace: PN45 110/322 8/70 gr 195bx Following up on Shooters post and the load he and his associates developed , dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless&action=display&thread=7702at Savage Shooter’s suggestion, I tested a load with slightly less N110 and slightly more H322. Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 3, Strain Gage Voltage =5 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 65 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .032 in. Sensor dist fm BP= 1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = Barnes 195bx. Bullet weight = 195 gr. ,unknurled. Sabot: Harvester Smooth Blue ~9gr. Powder: N110/H322 8/70 gr. Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm dirty barrel As Savage Shooter predicted, the secondary spike lessened from the 110/322 10/68 gr 195bx load shown in the earlier thread (17082 psi v 13764 psi). Velocity was very slightly less, probably because I forgot to knurl the bullets. Peak pressures and rise times of the initial peaks were almost identical. I thought it worth posting this in a new thread because I thought it might be of interest in the “load info” thread. At the muzzle, this load and the one shown in the earlier thread develop velocity, energy, and recoil close to what one might expect see in a 200gr bullet fired from a 338 Win Mag. The sabot was recovered intact. This load seemed safe in my barrel under conditions of the test but may not be so under other conditions.  |
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Post by jeremylong on Feb 18, 2011 13:41:04 GMT -5
So are you saying that you need a scope with decent eye relief with this one? :-)
This is looking good.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 14:00:54 GMT -5
Very good news and the PT reaction was "predictable".
Thanks TG
Mark
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Post by bteague on Feb 18, 2011 14:01:49 GMT -5
TG,Are you firing at a target.If so.Was there a difference
In the point of impact with the in the starter powder?
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Post by TGinPA on Feb 18, 2011 14:23:13 GMT -5
bteague: Where I am testing, I can't fire at a target. Maybe shooter can tell you.
jeremylong: That and a firm grip.
TGinPA (Ralph)
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Post by rangeball on Feb 18, 2011 14:31:11 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, what would a "perfect" trace look like? Not secondary spike, bullet exit on the downline of the initial curve?
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Post by shooter on Feb 18, 2011 14:43:51 GMT -5
TG,Are you firing at a target.If so.Was there a difference In the point of impact with the in the starter powder? I will have to get back to you on that one.I have not shot the 8gr n110 /70gr h-322 yet.I am gonna say probably not much differences if any.I was using 59gr H4198 sighted in at 2inches high at a 100 yards.I shot the 10gr N110/ 68Gr-H322 at a 100yards with no scope adjustment it shot 6.5 inches high at 100yards. |
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Post by shooter on Feb 18, 2011 14:46:52 GMT -5
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 14:48:45 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, what would a "perfect" trace look like? Not secondary spike, bullet exit on the downline of the initial curve? Here are some of the old traces RB did years ago. Some of these are perfect and proven loads since this time. Go about midway down page. Just note that these were in the .50 OEM Savage. dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=3372 |
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Post by rangeball on Feb 18, 2011 15:04:28 GMT -5
Thanks fellas, about what I expected but wasn't sure.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 15:15:50 GMT -5
So are you saying that you need a scope with decent eye relief with this one? :-) This is looking good. As To Recoil: This load is about 9 to 10% less than with a duplex in the .50 with 250gr sst starting at 2600fps which many of you have shot. Ran these using an 11 lb total gun weight. Compare .45 with 10/68 N110/H322 with 200sst @ 3000fps to Compare .50 with 14/61 N110/H322 with 250sst @ 2600fps. Recoil Impulse of .45 = 4.05 lbs/second Recoil Impulse of .50 = 4.21 lbs/second Recoil Velocity of .45 = 11.84 fps Recoil Velocity of .50 = 12.34 fps Free Recoil of .45 = 23.9 ft/lbs Free Recoil of .50 = 26.0 ft/lbs I like it! |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 15:41:02 GMT -5
What I hope everyone is seeing with this load is the capability of a load at 10/70 of N110/H322 to consistently get about 3150fps and keep pressures under 40K with a 195bx!!!
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Post by jeremylong on Feb 18, 2011 15:54:34 GMT -5
Very interesting indeed. Next questions in my little brain, vent liner wear and temparature sensitivity. I suspect the temp sens will be good with the booster.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 15:59:40 GMT -5
Very interesting indeed. Next questions in my little brain, vent liner wear and temparature sensitivity. I suspect the temp sens will be good with the booster. Temp sensitivity should be OK but will tell with more testing. Vent wear is an easy one. IMO i.e. a 37K load will always wear vents at a slower rate than 38K load. Time to peak pressure and time under pressure can make a tad of difference but IME vent wear is most directly related to peak pressure. |
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Post by TGinPA on Feb 18, 2011 16:03:48 GMT -5
I will be interested to see how we can play this game when summer comes.
TG
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Post by rangeball on Feb 18, 2011 16:07:49 GMT -5
What I hope everyone is seeing with this load is the capability of a load at 10/70 of N110/H322 to consistently get about 3150fps and keep pressures under 40K with a 195bx!!! Perhaps I'm missing something but doesn't this trace hit 40k at less than 3150fps and with only 8gr of 110? Or is going to 10gr 110 for the starter the next step and you are predicting results, which are very impressive by the way  |
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Post by deadeye on Feb 18, 2011 16:13:00 GMT -5
most excellent & informative thread & post. and to think i was on my last project for a while ;D ;D ;D
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Post by bteague on Feb 18, 2011 18:23:47 GMT -5
TG and Shooter the reason I ask.TG said he forgot to knurl on the second trace.But the traces were so close.Thanks for the replies.Billy
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Post by bteague on Feb 18, 2011 18:27:51 GMT -5
I guess i should finish the thought .If point of impact are close.Why knurl?Thanks again.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 18:34:12 GMT -5
I guess i should finish the thought .If point of impact are close.Why knurl?Thanks again. No need to knurl if your 195bx box has the lot number 4272 or GREATER. If lot number is less than that number you would probably have to knurl is what I am seeing. According to Ty at barnes any bullets 4272 run a bit larger diameter and have the flatter base that Shooter got them to start making. Now that is all they make, Part # 40052 and lot #4272 or later. So it depends on which bullet your shooting. |
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Post by bteague on Feb 18, 2011 18:42:15 GMT -5
TG I took your suggestion and downloaded the manual. After doing a a lot of reading.And looking at some of the example traces.Those secondary pressure spikes indicate a slight mismatch in powder and bullet weight.The last to traces indicate maybe a slightly faster powder or a heavier bullet.Now keep in mind I am just a truck driver.So take this for what its worth.Most of you probably have a better grasp on this stuff than i have.Thanks.Billy
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Post by bteague on Feb 18, 2011 18:45:29 GMT -5
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 18:56:17 GMT -5
What I hope everyone is seeing with this load is the capability of a load at 10/70 of N110/H322 to consistently get about 3150fps and keep pressures under 40K with a 195bx!!! Perhaps I'm missing something but doesn't this trace hit 40k at less than 3150fps and with only 8gr of 110? Or is going to 10gr 110 for the starter the next step and you are predicting results, which are very impressive by the way This trace hits 37947 @ 3039 load of 8/70 n110/h322 there is also a trace that shows 37775 @ 3080 (average of 3110 & 3055) on previous thread (Here you go Mark). Load was 10/68 N110/H322. This trace had a incorrect trace that TG later corrected. Predicting the next step you can use either load and exponentially "predict" what 2gr on the front or back of the load will do. i.e. lets use the 10/68 load at 3080. This load is making about 39fps/gr so it is reasonable to think if the barrel is long enough to burn it that 10/70 is only 2gr more on the H322. 3080fps+80fps = 3160 or so at least. As Edge stated 5% speed raises pressure 10% is old rule of thumb. 3080 divided by 3160 = .974 (2.6% speed gain) so again it would be reasonable to assume a pressure gain at 5.2%. Highest pressure of 10/68 load was 37775psi 37775 times 5.2% = 39739psi. Would have to trace for confirmation. But exponentially it works. My head hurts now so going back to sleep. |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 18, 2011 19:11:10 GMT -5
TG I took your suggestion and downloaded the manual. After doing a a lot of reading.And looking at some of the example traces.Those secondary pressure spikes indicate a slight mismatch in powder and bullet weight.The last to traces indicate maybe a slightly faster powder or a heavier bullet.Now keep in mind I am just a truck driver.So take this for what its worth.Most of you probably have a better grasp on this stuff than i have.Thanks.Billy Yes, it is a true pressure spike when bullet is still well inside the barrel. As many will tell you we are not sure what the slight rise means when bullet is out of barrel. The OBT markers on the trace will show real darn close when bullet has exited. Different thoughts on this and some think that unburned powder is burning outside barrel that causes the rises outside barrel. I know for a fact that RB did not put a lot of stock in this. He always told me that in his opinion barrel harmonics can cause this too. I certainly don't know the answer but can tell you I have good accuracy as Shooter did when trace still shows pressure after bullet has exited. RB did a trace with with 44gr of N110 under a 300sst that he used to show where he could duplicate the trace like shown at top of thread. Trace would have the same pressure appearance but for sure the powder was not too slow for that load..............not too light of bullet.......... so what is it telling us.......hmmmmm, again don't know. see here dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=2981&page=1 |
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Post by bteague on Feb 18, 2011 19:25:14 GMT -5
When did muzzle loading get so complicated?Sometimes i think im better off not knowing what i dont know?
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Post by edge on Feb 18, 2011 19:32:02 GMT -5
Pressure with Powley is a bit special! IMR powders are very similar. They all have the same energy per grain, but a different burn rate since they are single powders. Powley wants to keep pressure to about 45 kpsi. which IMO should be our max. This is available on the web so take a look and try it....but undertand the it ONLY works for IMR powders! Just remember that this is ONLY for Dupont powder, ans everything else is a crapshooT! EDGE.  |
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