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Post by Dave W on Jun 22, 2009 20:51:17 GMT -5
The only time I have had primers fail to go off is with Winchesters, until now. Both Feds and CCI 209M's, neither will go off consistently, as many as 5 in a row before I can get one to fire.
Cleaned the bolt and adjusted the firing pin twice, it is now protruding .095, way too much according to Rossman's post in the Tips section. You can see a slight indentation in the primer on the ones that fail to fire, like the firing pin just barely touched it.
Haven't tried cleaning the trigger assembly. The gun has close to 2000 shots. Tried two different plugs including the one I hunted with last year which never exhibited any problems until I started on the new batch of primers. The firing pin spring seems to have plenty of tension. Tried 3 different boxes of primers.
Am I missing something?
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Post by ozark on Jun 22, 2009 21:01:28 GMT -5
It is my guess that the barrel may have somehow worked loose and the primer is not going up into the breech plug fully. Meaning for some rason the primer is moving forward when the firiing pin stirkes it. Does it appear that the bolt presses the primer into the BP?
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Post by DBinNY on Jun 22, 2009 21:03:09 GMT -5
Any chance your barrel is unscrewing and you have too much headspace?
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Post by DBinNY on Jun 22, 2009 21:03:48 GMT -5
You're too fast Ozark!
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Post by Dave W on Jun 22, 2009 21:06:35 GMT -5
It is my guess that the barrel may have somehow worked loose and the primer is not going up into the breech plug fully. Meaning for some rason the primer is moving forward when the firiing pin stirkes it. Does it appear that the bolt presses the primer into the BP? It takes some effort to cam the bolt over, normal I would say. I thought about this also and shot a fouled plug for a while to try and push the primer back further toward the bolt in case the primer carrier might be worn. The problem still persisted. The sights appear to be TDC and the thimble appears to be lined up correctly.
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Post by KerryB on Jun 22, 2009 21:06:46 GMT -5
Is this an accu-trigger rifle? Have you checked to make sure there isn't a malfunction in the safety and the blade assembly?
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Post by Dave W on Jun 22, 2009 21:10:00 GMT -5
Is this an accu-trigger rifle? Have you checked to make sure there isn't a malfunction in the safety and the blade assembly? Yes it is an accutrigger and no I haven't checked the trigger. Remedy?
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Post by KerryB on Jun 22, 2009 21:20:41 GMT -5
Over the years i have read many times about guys suspecting the accu-trigger of causing misfires. Not sure of exactly how to check for accu-trigger or safety malfunction. I would pull the barreled action from the stock and start inspecting and cleaning all of the trigger, safety, and bolt assembly including firing pin and springs. Maybe you will get lucky and see something obvious? Good luck buddy........
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Post by kevin k on Jun 22, 2009 21:24:17 GMT -5
i have the same with the cci 209m went to the cci209 and w209 and haven't had it happen again i have 2 packs and both did it i dont know why nether i would also like to know the answer as i have 2 packs i cant use oh and i have the new style hex head bp dont know if it matters or not did you try the w209 or the cci209 lately?i just thought i got a bad run of them but have not bought any more to try
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Post by Dave W on Jun 22, 2009 21:32:43 GMT -5
i have the same with the cci 209m went to the cci209 and w209 and haven't had it happen again i have 2 packs and both did it i dont know why nether i would also like to know the answer as i have 2 packs i cant use oh and i have the new style hex head bp dont know if it matters or not did you try the w209 or the cci209 lately?i just thought i got a bad run of them but have not bought any more to try Probably 1600 shots with Feds on 4 or 5 different plugs and never a misfire until now. I'm going to try cleaning the trigger and reset the firing pin to .070 to see if the problem goes away. The action hasn't been out of the stock in probably 2+ years so I'm pretty sure there has to be some crud from all the cleaning and solvents seeping down in to there.
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Post by kevin k on Jun 22, 2009 21:35:31 GMT -5
makes sense to me let us know if it works thanks. kevin
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Post by boarhog on Jun 22, 2009 22:18:58 GMT -5
The little slot on the bolt that holds the primer on my rifle is fairly loose. Loose enough that I noticed a primer angling down enough to catch lightly on the primer socket in the BP. Not enough to keep the primer from going into the BP. Is it possible for that slot or clip, to wear from the primers sliding into it, that the primer is not held tightly enough to the bolt face? Could wear like that play a role in misfires?
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 22, 2009 22:42:33 GMT -5
The thing I would check first is to see if your bolt is going down all the way. Take the action out of the stock check/clean your trigger group. Then see how far the bolt goes down and maybe even try to pop a primer (just a primer,no load) to see if you get a deeper primer indentation. Your action may have settled more into the stock and you may have to relieve the stock to get the bolt to close more. Another culprit could be your rear action screw. If the action settled a bit the rear screw could be a hair too long. Even if it is not too long you could have put a slight mushroom on the tip of the rear action screw which would also cause the bolt not to close all the way and also make it stiff to close. A little work with a file will take care of that, take a little off the top and reduce the diameter of the tip a smige.
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 23, 2009 5:21:37 GMT -5
Is it possible that in an attempt to keep up with the current demand for primers that the manufacturers are distributing less than perfect product? I have also experienced misfires of primers recently.
Doug
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Post by rjhans53 on Jun 23, 2009 5:50:08 GMT -5
I just installed a pac-nor on my blued action and if the barrel is to tight the bolt doesn't close all the way and doesn't let the firing pin fall all the way, it will fall but only puts a light dimple in the primer. I pushed in 2 primers with no bang until I figured it out. I backed the barrel out (to far) and bang every time, took it apart and got a turn and 1/2 and still no problem. Seeing you didn't install a barrel is there a chance maybe you have some gunk on the shoulder area of the breech plug or barrel (maybe old grease) that isn't letting you get the bolt all the way down
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Post by edge on Jun 23, 2009 6:47:26 GMT -5
Have you cleaned the breechplug nipple recently?
With 2000 shots on the rifle, boarhog's idea has merit. It won't matter if the primer is snug in the nipple though since the primer will be pushed back fairly hard on the boltface.
If this problem happens most of the time, then take a small strip of Scotch tape and place it over the primer. Close the bolt ( it may be hard, and shoot. If the primers go off consistently now the problem is not enough resistance to the primer and/or the bolthead slot has too much slop.
With 0.095 of pin protrusion I would worry about piercing the primers. Personally I think that the trigger or rear action screw may be the problem, but the tape will let you eliminate the bolthead and primer pocket with one test.
edge.
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Post by Dave W on Jun 23, 2009 18:04:50 GMT -5
Have you cleaned the breechplug nipple recently? With 2000 shots on the rifle, boarhog's idea has merit. It won't matter if the primer is snug in the nipple though since the primer will be pushed back fairly hard on the boltface. If this problem happens most of the time, then take a small strip of Scotch tape and place it over the primer. Close the bolt ( it may be hard, and shoot. If the primers go off consistently now the problem is not enough resistance to the primer and/or the bolthead slot has too much slop. With 0.095 of pin protrusion I would worry about piercing the primers. Personally I think that the trigger or rear action screw may be the problem, but the tape will let you eliminate the bolthead and primer pocket with one test. edge. Edge, I have tried a fouled plug and a clean plug, both misfire. The fouled plug should be pushing the primers back toward the bolt face-correct? The .095 protrusion was done the other day after I cleaned the bolt for the second time in a week. Adjusting it out to .095 did not help, so it goes back to .070 when I tear it down to clean the trigger. Going to rule out the rear action screw- I have an after market screw in mine so I can take the bolt out without loosening the action screw. I wondered the same thing Doug about the manufacturers since this problem just appeared out of nowhere when I starting shooting the most recently bought primers. Different set-up, but I have no problems with the Ruger .45. RJ, going to rule out crud on the barrel shoulder or plug. I'm pretty demented when it comes to cleaning. ;D Thanks for all the replies and ideas guys.
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Post by Richard on Jun 23, 2009 18:23:36 GMT -5
DaveW...........One thing that no one mentioned so far is the possibility that somewhere along the line, you pierced a primer and the little piece of brass was blown back thru the hole in the bolt face. This little piece of brass will invariably get caught alongside the firing pin and wedge there.....NOT allowing the firing pin to go fully forward. Mind you, it does not necessarily happen every time, just when it gets loose and happens to impede the travel of the firing pin. If I were you, I would carefully disassembly the bolt over a clean surface/cloth and see if something foreign drops out. Richard
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Post by Harley on Jun 23, 2009 18:35:13 GMT -5
What Richard just mentioned happened to me some months ago. I don't think that's your problem, though, because you have already dissassembled the bolt and done a thorough overall clean.
Here's another check you can do (for what it's worth): After closing the bolt on a primer, try to put your safety on, all the way back. If it won't go all the way, the rifle will not fire the primer. If it does go on full safe, that should mean the bolt is correctly cocked.
I'd also clean that trigger group, maybe with brake cleaner; then let it dry; finally, drip lighter fluid all through it. When dry, the lighter fluid will provide good lubrication and will not gum any of the moving parts.
Harley
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Post by Dave W on Jun 24, 2009 18:35:20 GMT -5
OK Took the action out of the stock. Cleaned the trigger assembly liberally with brake cleaner.
You can tell the primer is snug in the plug, takes some effort to pull the bolt back after it misfires and I can see scratches in the primer where it slid into the plug.
Tried putting tape on the primer and closing the bolt but it still misfires intermittently. This is with the action out of the stock and the firing pin protrusion at .095.
I am led to believe either my trigger has gone bad or the primers are at fault, but they fire every time in my .45. I need to get a hold of my buddies gun to see if the primers work in his gun.
Tried Harleys suggestion and the safety works fine. I need to check what Richard said, but when I adjusted the firing pin and cleaned the bolt the firing pin slides smoothly through the opening with no drag.
Any other suggestions? Thanks.
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Post by edge on Jun 24, 2009 18:51:43 GMT -5
SNIP Any other suggestions? Thanks. Call or email Joe. IMO, this is most likely a trigger or bolt issue and I bet they know the answer without seeing it! edge.
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Post by ET on Jun 24, 2009 21:50:33 GMT -5
DW If this was occurring to me the 1st thing I would be visually checking is the sear operation. In the picture below is the sear position. Even though not cocked it should appear the same when cocked. Then when I set the trigger off the sear should instantly fall down into this position allowing the firing pin full travel/force hitting the primer. Hope this helps to find the problem or eliminates a possible cause. Ed
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Post by Harley on Jun 24, 2009 22:02:48 GMT -5
I bet Ed's on to something; if the bolt is fully cocked and if the primer is properly positioned, the only thing left is a failure of the pin to fully extend when the rifle is fired. Since DaveD says the spring has good tension and if he can't feel any resistance to the pin's protrusion when the bolt's disassembled, visually checking the fall of the sear a dozen times or so might show the malfunction.
Harley
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Post by Al on Jun 28, 2009 4:18:13 GMT -5
Dave, did you get this figured out?
Good point Ed and Harley.
After that many shots, I'd still replace the firing pin spring, just to be sure.
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Post by Dave W on Jun 28, 2009 10:18:41 GMT -5
Dave, did you get this figured out? Good point Ed and Harley. After that many shots, I'd still replace the firing pin spring, just to be sure. Not yet, too busy at work. I might get out of work early enough to give Joe a call this week during their business hours. I will also have a friends gun this week to try his bolt in my gun to see if it is the bolt/spring or possibly the trigger/sear malfunctioning.
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Post by chuck41 on Jun 28, 2009 16:10:25 GMT -5
Trying friends bolt in your gun and vice-versa should tell you a lot. Hope you can do that before calling Joe. That info will likely help him come up with reasonable options.
Good Luck. Chuck
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Post by Dave W on Jun 29, 2009 12:10:06 GMT -5
Well it is definitely something with the bolt. Just tried the bolt out of my buddies gun and fired 6 of the primers that were only slightly dented with my bolt. All six fired without a hitch, then tried some new Feds and they fired with no problem also. The primer carrier on both bolts look to have similar play so I think the spring may be too soft.
Savage is closed for two weeks so I can't get a hold of Joe D or a couple weeks to see what he thinks.
Thanks for all the help and feedback.
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 29, 2009 13:15:13 GMT -5
I would think it still boils down to, A. The bolt not being all the way down. B. Something slowing down the sear or firing pin. C. The sear not dropping all the way. In Ed's first photo, we will call it photo A, you see the sear/cock indicator (#1) all the way up, As the force of the cocking pin is transfered to the sear it may drop some. In Ed's second photo, we will call it photo B, the sear has dropped after pulling the trigger. The sear should drop all the way. If not you have something blocking it. Ether the stock is interfering or look around the rear pillar. The reason the rear pillar is cut is to provide clearance of the sear. You also want to check the dimension of the cocking pin cut to the top of the action, #2, it should be at least 1/8". If not the bolt is not going all the way down and the cocking pin is hitting the cocking ramp before the firing pin reaches full travel. You could try removing the rear action screw to see if the dimension increases, if it doesn't then the stock may be interfering with the bolt. This is like doing brain surgery over the phone. What was the last modification/s you did before this started?
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 29, 2009 13:28:27 GMT -5
I ate lunch in the middle of doing the last post. So if it is your bolt and you have cleaned it, is the bolt handle loose? Did you adjust the cocking piece pin? When you test fired the primers with your buddies bolt was the rear action screw in?
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Post by Dave W on Jun 29, 2009 14:29:53 GMT -5
I ate lunch in the middle of doing the last post. So if it is your bolt and you have cleaned it, is the bolt handle loose? Did you adjust the cocking piece pin? When you test fired the primers with your buddies bolt was the rear action screw in? Test fired with his bolt with the action out of the stock as well as in the stock, fires every time. Put my bolt back in and it misfires, not every time though. Also tested with my bolt and the action out of the stock- misfires. The sear appears to drop further down when I use his bolt, mine does not have enough force to push the sear all the way down. I would think this would indicate the spring is weak- agree? I have adjusted the pin three times. First to .070, then to .095, it is now back at .065. Even at .095 the primers misfire just as often as it did before I adjusted the pin. The handle is not loose.
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