|
|
Post by jeff on May 7, 2009 5:57:58 GMT -5
Powder Comparison has been talked about in the past, however with the shortage of a few of our favorite powders not available I know there are a few of you that can shed light on comparable ones. Such as H4198 as a substitute for N-120. Who would like to chime in?
Thanks,Jeff~
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 7, 2009 8:58:45 GMT -5
Jeff........I would probably put Reloader -7 in the same catagory with N-120 and H-4198. Speaking of N-120.........Have any of the .45 shooters tried N-120? Since H-4198 has worked well for me, I just might try N-120.  Richard |
|
|
|
Post by Chris Champion on May 7, 2009 9:11:01 GMT -5
Powder Comparison has been talked about in the past, however with the shortage of a few of our favorite powders not available I know there are a few of you that can shed light on comparable ones. Such as H4198 as a substitute for N-120. Who would like to chime in? Thanks,Jeff~ Jeff, Last year was only my 2nd season with the Savage and when N120 became hard to find in the spring of 2008 I tried H4198. I settled on 67g of H4198 with the Barnes Original and Black Crush Rib sabot. This was the most accurate load I had ever put through my gun. In cool weather if I did my part, it could hover around MOA out to about 250 yds from the bench. It didn't take me long to care less if I ever found N120 again. I shot up 2 lb of it last year and my experience was that H4198: 1. Is easier to find, (at least at the time)  2. Shot 75-100 fps faster at appropriate load levels (you can go much faster if wanted). 70g with the BO/BCR combo shot right at 2500 fps. My shoulder said enough. 3. Was a little tougher on sabot bases but I never blew one. 4. Had a little more recoil at appropriate load levels. 5. Was more accurate for me then N120 6. Was not temperature sensitive with the right load combinations. Actual testing with BO/BCR combo resulted in 67g H4198 yielding 2400 fps in 45* weather, 2375 fps in 10* weather). Always went bang. I did witness a 90 fps (2480 to 2390) drop using 70g H4198 and a 250g bullet at the same temp ranges. I'd say for best results in a wide range of conditions use 300g bullets and tight fitting sabots. For comparision, 60g of N120 with the tight fitting BO/BCR combo shot about 2320 fps in my gun in 45* weather. I would never go back to N120. |
|
|
|
Post by rbinar on May 7, 2009 9:18:12 GMT -5
8-)The discussion of H4198, RL7, and N120 are a sizable part of a new web site I’m building. However it is a day or two away from hitting the web so I’ll preview here what some of it says.
VV N120 is the fastest of the three. In a 50 caliber rifle a 300 grain bullet needs only 58 to 60 grains to hit the common pressure restraints. It can also be fired with a 250 grain bullet but for whatever reason this is not popular with shooters. N120 seems to have a speed limit just below 2375fps (with exceptions) with a 300 grain bullet and bare sabots. 250 grain speed limits have not be completely establish.
Hodgdon H4198 is slower than N120 and requires about 64 grains as a minimum pressure load with a 300 grain bullet. The power level is almost unlimited. The 50 Alaskan reaches 4600fpe with a 435 grain bullet shooting 35,000psi. With a 300 grain bullet this translates to much more than your shoulder would want to take. If you want an exact number that means about 2600fps as a maximum load that won’t blow bare sabots. With a 250 grain bullet I’ve heard of load past 2700fps but not me. 72 grains at somewhere near 2550fps is enough.
Alliant Reloader #7 (RL7) is much the same burning speed as H4198. It could be a little faster due to a higher bulk density but they are close. It is as useful as the two above but for whatever reason not as popular. Some of the best speed/reliability seen is with RL7. It seems it should be a lot more popular but time will tell. Like H4198 it makes power in abundance in a 50 caliber rifle. However it is very easy to ignite and I encourage it for those who worry about ignition cold weather sensitivity and other reliability issues.
All three of the above powders have some advantage VV N120 provides a more efficient 300 grain bullet load, whereas H4198 can go faster and is popular even with 250 grain bullets. RL7 is much like H4198 and may be the easiest of the 3 to procure because of it’s popularity in many lever gun loads.
|
|
|
|
Post by rbinar on May 7, 2009 9:57:00 GMT -5
Jeff........I would probably put Reloader -7 in the same catagory with N-120 and H-4198. Speaking of N-120.........Have any of the .45 shooters tried N-120? Since H-4198 has worked well for me, I just might try N-120. Richard It works in 45 caliber try about 53 grains with sabots. If you can get it to 56 grains without blowing sabots, go for it. I have not tried it sabot-less but the loads from the Lapua 444 Marlin data indicates it can work with light weight bullets. Pressures are slightly less in 45 caliber than in the 444. However this is fairly fast stuff and care needs to be observed. Loads should have less N120 than RL7 or H4198 for the same pressure. This added later: No duplex should be attempted with N120! It's too fast to find the proper pressure gradient. |
|
|
|
Post by craigf on May 7, 2009 10:12:17 GMT -5
Richard, Kevin B on the old board shot a lot of N120 out of his 45. He used 51-53 grains for SSTs and Barnes with good results.
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on May 7, 2009 10:39:37 GMT -5
Thanks RB and Craig!
Richard
|
|
|
|
Post by dougedwards on May 7, 2009 10:44:38 GMT -5
I have used up to 70 grains of R-7 with 300 grain projectiles with little signs of pressure and a very acurate load in my 50 cal. Even in warm weather the sabots are very flared but not cut up. For some reason H4198 seems like a faster burn by the way it recoils and sounds and is not quite as accurate for me. Just some simple observations.
Doug
|
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on May 8, 2009 5:19:15 GMT -5
One of these days I will buy some reloader 7. But now, when it comes to muscle and horsepower and good groups, H4198 is tough to beat.
When I hear things about other powders being easier to ignite, I really can't disagree. But I feel it's like saying that 7 spoons of sugar in your coffee is sweeter the 6 spoons. It's true but relativity says it matters not much. H4198 has always gone off for me...maybe 1000 times or more...from really cold to really hot.
|
|
|
|
Post by kevin k on May 8, 2009 6:46:51 GMT -5
i have some r7 and h4i98 dos any one know which one is cleaner burn ive read that r7 is easy on vents but like 5744 which my gun likes it has nitro is that what makes it a dirty powder? i havent got to the r7 much but what i did shoot was very accurate will be working up loads now with both of them to see vent wear diff i also like the 4198 but still need to find out what load my gun likes 67gr gives it about 1.50 group not bad but i know my gun can do better would slowing it down to the speed of the 46gr of 5744 help as with it my groups are inch or better or would there be a problem making it go boom with less powder
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris Champion on May 8, 2009 9:30:09 GMT -5
Kevin,
What weight of bullet are you shooting? I think if you try to slow down H4198 you will definately have problems making it go boom. I'm not certain, (RB would be the guy to ask for sure), but I would say that 2300 fps with a 300g bullet and 2400 fps with a 250gr bullet would be about as slow as you could go with H4198 without seeing ignition problems. Those speeds are probably 200-300 fps faster then your shooting now with 5744.
|
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on May 8, 2009 9:48:58 GMT -5
Chris, that's what I thought as well, there was a minimum velocity threshold one needed to stay above to achieve consistency. It's what originally kept me from going with 4198 as I didn't want to shoot that fast off the bat.
After I ordered N110, Dan @ SMI told me he worked up a load for a kid of 43 grains of 4198 with a 250 grain bullet and it shot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Al also has had no issues with low does 4198. These are saboted loads if it makes a difference.
Makes me wonder...
|
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on May 8, 2009 19:26:20 GMT -5
Powders have preferable load levels for optimum performance. For example, If you want 2600 fps with a 250 gr bullet, you won't want to use N110, 5744, or 4759. If you want 2300 fps with the same bullet, H4198 is not the right choice.
From my experience with 250's, (now where near the experience of RB's) 2300 and under is perfect for book powders. 2300-2500 is best with N120 (there are others). And when you want speed...2600+ H4198 is a solid slam dunk powder. Not even a little worry. Obviously, you need enough powder in each catagory to reach the velocities mentioned.
With 300 gr bullets, again from my experience which is limited compared to some, 2100 fps and under is best with a book powder. 2100-2300 is N120 range. Over 2300 fps and healthy doses of H4198 and H322 have been great.
Pick a power level, pick a bullet weight and then pick a powder for that combo.
I've left duplex out of the equation because my experience with them is limited and I prefer a single.
|
|
|
|
Post by mshm99 on May 8, 2009 19:33:21 GMT -5
It's a beautiful thing when you get a load working for you, whatever that may be. That said, the five new MLII's I've helped dial in shot darn close to 1.0" MOA with 58.5 to 59.5 gr. N120,300gr. BO or 300 rem .458 and a BCR. IMO N120 takes the guess work out of the equation, not to mention the boost a guy gets when his new MLII shoots better than anything else he owns.
I don't know that N120 is to hard to find as I bought an 8 pound jug this last weekend at a show. The deal was in the works for some time and the 8 lbs was spoken for before I picked it up. I bought 8 pounds last year about this time. Guys,if you want N120, you can find it. But if you want it in small quantities,yesterday,you are better off with H4198.
I say go with what works for you.
mshm
|
|
