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Post by Chris Champion on Apr 5, 2011 20:54:01 GMT -5
www.hornady.com/store/405-Cal-.411-300-gr-SP/I have been following the 45 cal pressure trace info with peaked interest. Hats off to you guys for putting the time effort and expense into this project. Great stuff. Savage Shooter and others have said that 200g bullets might still be light for ideal pressures in the 45. The above bullet might provide a viable option sized down to .400-.402. With an advertised BC of .265 this bullet at 2400 fps would have a similar trajectory as the 195 Barnes at 2700 fps. Here is another offering from Barnes. Also a 300g .405 Win bullet with an advertised BC of .280 www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=174920
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 5, 2011 21:12:03 GMT -5
www.hornady.com/store/405-Cal-.411-300-gr-SP/I have been following the 45 cal pressure trace info with peaked interest. Hats off to you guys for putting the time effort and expense into this project. Great stuff. Savage Shooter and others have said that 200g bullets might still be light for ideal pressures in the 45. The above bullet might provide a viable option sized down to .400-.402. With an advertised BC of .265 this bullet at 2400 fps would have a similar trajectory as the 195 Barnes at 2700 fps. Here is another offering from Barnes. Also a 300g .405 Win bullet with an advertised BC of .280 www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=174920 I have been hoping for about a 230 - 250 grain bullet like the BE. |
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Post by sw on Apr 5, 2011 21:59:42 GMT -5
www.hornady.com/store/405-Cal-.411-300-gr-SP/I have been following the 45 cal pressure trace info with peaked interest. Hats off to you guys for putting the time effort and expense into this project. Great stuff. Savage Shooter and others have said that 200g bullets might still be light for ideal pressures in the 45. The above bullet might provide a viable option sized down to .400-.402. With an advertised BC of .265 this bullet at 2400 fps would have a similar trajectory as the 195 Barnes at 2700 fps. Here is another offering from Barnes. Also a 300g .405 Win bullet with an advertised BC of .280 www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=174920 I have been hoping for about a 230 - 250 grain bullet like the BE. Me too |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Apr 5, 2011 23:02:31 GMT -5
I would like to see something in the the 230-250gr range too. IIRC there is one about 265gr in about .411 or less but its a round nose.
401 Winchester was about .406 too IIRC and about the right weights but those are RN or FPs i think.
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Post by rkrobson on Apr 5, 2011 23:43:06 GMT -5
Chris, which sabot would you put a .411 dia bullet in? Or would you size it down? Iam curiuos as I was searching for the same thing online today, and only found .411 dia bullets in weights and bcs I desire, Ray
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Post by moto357 on Apr 6, 2011 6:42:06 GMT -5
 yet to shoot it but i chucked up a lee mold in the lathe and this was the end product. with a sabot weight is about 300gr will post results soon as i can send some down range |
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Post by Chris Champion on Apr 6, 2011 8:12:21 GMT -5
Chris, which sabot would you put a .411 dia bullet in? Or would you size it down? Iam curiuos as I was searching for the same thing online today, and only found .411 dia bullets in weights and bcs I desire, Ray Since my barrel is a little on the loose side compared to others (.450-.451 land to land) I'd try the blue harvester crush rib. If that didn't fit then I'd try to size it down. |
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Post by fishhawk on Apr 6, 2011 11:56:12 GMT -5
I want a better BC .40 as well!
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Post by rangeball on Apr 6, 2011 13:18:36 GMT -5
I want a better BC .40 as well! What is the max BC you guys would expect from a heavier .40 bullet? There isn't that much of a gain in the hornady or barnes .45s from 250 to 300, not sure it's enough to provide anything but a negligible difference at range, but I guess that depends on the definition of significance. Although the new parker 325 seems to show much better is possible, isn't the .45 275 be like .26 versus over .4 with the 325? That's a significant increase for sure. I assume just making the bullet longer and subsequently heavier say with an SST/shockwave or barnes isn't going to provide as much as doing this AND altering the nose profile would, which seems to be the biggest change in the 325be, which I don't think we yet have a good idea how it will perform terminally? I remain skeptical but would love to be proven wrong. Gimme a .40 with a .35+ bc that performs terminally like a barnes and I'll gladly pay whatever is asked  |
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Post by fishhawk on Apr 6, 2011 13:38:25 GMT -5
If it can be done with a .45, it can surely be done in .40 with less weight than 325-7. The design is as much if not more important than the weight in getting the BC higher. Yes, terminal performance over the Barnes is tough to beat. I dislike the wind drift with the current lot of bullets at longer ranges. The drift has caused me some marginal hits at 250-300yds. I said this before which is worse a good hit with a marginal bullet or a marginal hit with a good bullet?
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 6, 2011 13:49:38 GMT -5
I want a better BC .40 as well! What is the max BC you guys would expect from a heavier .40 bullet? There isn't that much of a gain in the hornady or barnes .45s from 250 to 300, not sure it's enough to provide anything but a negligible difference at range, but I guess that depends on the definition of significance. Although the new parker 325 seems to show much better is possible, isn't the .45 275 be like .26 versus over .4 with the 325? That's a significant increase for sure. I assume just making the bullet longer and subsequently heavier say with an SST/shockwave or barnes isn't going to provide as much as doing this AND altering the nose profile would, which seems to be the biggest change in the 325be, which I don't think we yet have a good idea how it will perform terminally? I remain skeptical but would love to be proven wrong. Gimme a .40 with a .35+ bc that performs terminally like a barnes and I'll gladly pay whatever is asked Even a 240gr grain that is a true .25-.26 bc is big gain for us. Just comparing the bc from .19 to a solid .26 (even with 195bx as base weight). Using 200yd zero at 2750fps. @ 300 drops are 2.3" different but @ 400 drops are 9" different, but forget drops I can dial/hold to that. Where even a modest gain shows big dividends is in usable energy down range. @ 400yds energy is down to 650 or so compared with 1000ft/lbs for just a .26 BC. Distance at which energy has declined to 1000ft/lbs (just for comparison) with 195gr bullet with .19 is barely 300yds vs 1000ft/lbs @ 410yds with BC of .26 (this would change with bullet weights of course). Drops don't panic me, but energy loss and accuracy is what really controls effective distance. We can decide if the wind or other conditions limit our distance as opportunities happen based on condtions at the time. Not enough energy the shooter can't "fix". |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 6, 2011 15:42:06 GMT -5
I downloaded and blew up a side by side pic of the 325 and 275 BE extreme and did some measuring.  I get the following comparison: Bearing surface length on both is the same. Bearing surface to nose length ratio- 1:1.4 for the 275 and 1:2 for the 325. Advertised bc- .24 for the 275 and .453 for the 325. So an 89% gain in bc for a 42% increase in nose length and 18% more weight. Pretty phenomenal. I then played with a metal calculator to see what it would take to get a barnes 195 .40 to match up to these specs, keeping the bearing surface the same and adding nose length to up the ratio (the barnes and I believe sst actually have a shorter nose than bearing surface regardless of total weight, opposite of the 275 be) and weight. Bumping the nose length up from .355" to .84" gives us a nose to bearing surface ratio of 1.59 and total weight of 234gr. No idea what the bc would end up at, but I can't help imagine it would be greatly enhanced. If we saw the same 89% increase, I believe that would put it at .359 (barnes at .19). I have a metal lathe (at the shop we inherited from my Grandpa now my brothers house), but would be far from precise with it I'm sure. But to test the theory out, it would be neat to get a handful made up on a CNC to see how they do. Hollow point and expansion could be worked out later if things go the right way. |
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Post by Richard on Apr 6, 2011 16:33:52 GMT -5
I think that 185 Leheight bullet I am playing with, the one with the tip in the "equipment" section? That should have a very high BC. There is also more room inside for more weight to be added. That NA Arms .22 slug I inserted, only goes in .100" There is at least .300" open space underneath it. A BB or some #8 or #9 shot could be added prior to inserting the slug. I would think the weight could be brought up to 225 gr. If I can only get it to shoot without drilling sabots  Richard |
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 6, 2011 18:59:31 GMT -5
You have to play with more varibles then just lengthening the nose. The Center of Gravity (CG) is a key to bullet stability. As the benchrest shooters have found the sleek VLD and ULD bullets are very sensitive to spin rate, the transitional ballistics phase as well as the sub-sonic transition. The nose ogive is important as it determines the shape of the super-sonic shockwave and body drag. The straight cone is easy but actually gives more drag then a elliptical, tangent, secant or the more complicated Haack. The plastic tip should be more then just a tip if you want it to assist in expansion. It should be more like a wedge to drive the nose of the bullet open and then you have space for it to go.    As far as the base we are limited to a flat base when using sabots which causes so much base drag you will not get a super high BC. |
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Post by Richard on Apr 6, 2011 20:57:55 GMT -5
While the Leheight does have a bit of a boat tail, probably not enough to drastically alter the BC..........but enough to cause havoc with a sabot  Richard |
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Post by tar12 on Apr 7, 2011 5:15:58 GMT -5
While the Leheight does have a bit of a boat tail, probably not enough to drastically alter the BC..........but enough to cause havoc with a sabot Richard Have you put it to the lathe? |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 7, 2011 8:44:13 GMT -5
rossman, I agree that everything you said will maximize bc, I just took a simplistic and hypothetical look at what the potential might be mirroring the parker design that has proven real world to provide a big bc jump. While the Leheight does have a bit of a boat tail, probably not enough to drastically alter the BC..........but enough to cause havoc with a sabot Richard I've often wondered if brass is harder to obturate than copper, which is causing the sabot issue at SML pressure. my 42gr N110 load under an RCR with a 250gr xtp shoots great, through in a flat base barnes 250gr and the sabot blows every time, even knurled. I assume it is an obturation issue but it's only a guess. |
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Post by Richard on Apr 7, 2011 8:49:52 GMT -5
No Tar I have not. However cutting the boat tail off will also reduce the weight of the bullet (which will cause BC loss..........Plus the loss of the boat tail reduces the BC also). And.......it is time consuming. It would be better if Leheight would make a bullet with an adaptable insert, sans the boat tail. OR, a sabot with more meat in the base and configured to accept the boat tail. An injection molded tip to accompany the bullet would be a no brainer. Apparently Leheight has to use that hex sided hollow point to hold the bullet during machining so providing a plastic tip would seem like logical idea to me?
Richard
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Post by rangeball on Apr 7, 2011 10:17:02 GMT -5
I sent an email to a machinist buddy yesterday and this is what I found in my inbox this morning-  Prototype in brass, made to the specs I posted above, comes in at 225gr. With copper being 5.7377% heavier than brass, copper should weigh in at 237. If these fly well, we can work out the HP and expansion aspects. |
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 7, 2011 10:55:30 GMT -5
Dan Lilja had a little program over on his website that you inputed the bullet data and would spit out BC and a stability factor based on the CG. It was based on McCoys work at ABL (used to be BRL) and a pretty good yard stick.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Apr 7, 2011 11:31:02 GMT -5
I like!!!!!!! How much per 100?  |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 7, 2011 12:08:39 GMT -5
I like!!!!!!! How much per 100? If I were a drug company I'd say $100 each but only $.01 when they go generic Wanting to do a run in copper as brass even though a bit lighter is much harder, and I believe copper will obturate better. Looking into that now. I'll take a look at Dan's site. Thanks for the heads up rossman. |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 7, 2011 12:22:38 GMT -5
Found the program- www.riflebarrels.com/products/software.htmHoly excrement it's over my head... anyone know how to run excel and make it work? I input what I believe to be the correct data but don't have a clue how to get it to generate calculation summaries. |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 7, 2011 14:19:10 GMT -5
Anyone know what grade copper barnes uses for their bullets? 110? hard or soft/annealed? Rossman?
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 7, 2011 16:59:13 GMT -5
I think all you have to do when using the Excel program is to substitute your data in the C-3 to C-13. C-3 is pretty simple, bullet diameter. C-4 is overall length C-5 is meplate diameter, since you have a point that doesn't count so put 0.00 C-6 to C-8 deals with boattails you can just 0.00 C-9 is the type of ogive, this program only deals with tangent and secant, your bullet is a cone or spire point, I would chose tangent. C-10 is the radius of the ogive measured in calibers (bullet diameter), to get close you may have to plot this out on paper.  For some reason if you input secant (which may be more accurate in this case) it doesn't ask for nose length or bearing length. C-11 asks for the specific gravity of the bullet, I'm not sure on the unit of measurement. Lead has a SG of 11340 kg/cu.m and copper 8930 kg/cu.m so it may be if you have a copper bullet 8.9. C-12 is your planned velocity in fps C-13 is air density, again I do not know what the measurement they ask for. ICAO standard is 1013.25 hPa @sea level with no humidity. Maybe the 1.018 is standard in PA. The program should calculate the rest. |
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 7, 2011 17:43:44 GMT -5
From what I understand it is 99.95% copper which would be 110 alloy. They may have used a different alloy in the past, when they were accused of serious fouling. The secret of the Barnes bullet is that they are formed in a multi step process. I was told as many as 9 swags or punches. Here is the patent application, www.freepatentsonline.com/5131123.pdf. With the grooves in the TSX I do not know if they are rolled or cut. Copper becomes hard and brittle being worked, "work hardening", they are annealed afterwords. Other companies cut the bullets on CNC equipment. |
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Post by deadon on Apr 7, 2011 17:53:33 GMT -5
From what I understand it is 99.95% copper which would be 110 alloy. They may have used a different alloy in the past, when they were accused of serious fouling. The secret of the Barnes bullet is that they are formed in a multi step process. I was told as many as 9 swags or punches. Here is the patent application, www.freepatentsonline.com/5131123.pdf. With the grooves in the TSX I do not know if they are rolled or cut. Copper becomes hard and brittle being worked, "work hardening", they are annealed afterwords. Other companies cut the bullets on CNC equipment. You are amazing Rossman I Wish I could understand the patent |
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Post by Al on Apr 7, 2011 18:21:48 GMT -5
No Tar I have not. However cutting the boat tail off will also reduce the weight of the bullet (which will cause BC loss..........Plus the loss of the boat tail reduces the BC also). And.......it is time consuming. It would be better if Leheight would make a bullet with an adaptable insert, sans the boat tail. OR, a sabot with more meat in the base and configured to accept the boat tail. An injection molded tip to accompany the bullet would be a no brainer. Apparently Leheight has to use that hex sided hollow point to hold the bullet during machining so providing a plastic tip would seem like logical idea to me? Richard Richard, Dave use to offer tips for his bullets, drop him a line and see if he has any laying around. I have a few of his bullets, they look to be made in 1op and I see no reason they wouldn't be done that way. |
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Post by rkrobson on Apr 7, 2011 18:34:15 GMT -5
Just thinking, could an exisiting Barnes bullet say the .45 Triple Shock be turned down to .4 as a starting point. If a copper bullet is in the equation, Barnes does do private runs. Two years before the 290 TEZ came out they gave a guy from NM a run of 20,000 of them and he packaged them under "Ultimate Muzzleloading Products", now defunct, to see if he could develop his own market. Again, just thinking, Ray
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Post by Richard on Apr 7, 2011 19:52:19 GMT -5
Al............Jon says he got some when he ordered the ones he sent me. So far, he has been unable to locate them as he said he would send them to me. Tar............I just took a 200 gr. Leheight that Jon sent me and turned the base flat. It reduced the weight to 189 gr. I then added some #9 lead shot and seated that NA Arms .22 bullet (30 gr.)...........then profiled the nose. Final weight? 222 gr. In my opinion, too much work for an already expensive bullet? Just putting in the insert and profiling is not bad. This can be done by anyone with a drill press. But the lathe end of it?  I will not get to shoot these for two weeks since our range is being closed for excavation work on the 300 yard berm. Let me ask the board one question...............How much do you think a bullet........particularly a solid one (like brass or copper) will actually "obturate" inside a soft plastic sabot? I don't see a whole lot of obturation with jacketed lead bullets shot sabot less much less a solid in a sabot  (based on the ones found in the dirt) Richard |
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I will not get to shoot these for two weeks since our range is being closed for excavation work on the 300 yard berm.
(based on the ones found in the dirt)