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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 6, 2010 22:45:33 GMT -5
I read the forum daily and sit with my chin in hand as everyone discovers and re-discovers the Savage.
It wasn't that long ago that this gun ruled my world all year. Always room for improvement and always something new to try.
About a year or so ago, I stopped playing around. My goal was hunting at reasonable ranges and it was obtained long ago. Most shots are slam dunks anyways when you want them to be.
I never realized the MOA 300+ loads and am not sure I ever will. But, my Savage waits impatiently all year. Even as the ever so imminent rifle season will surely be here in this part of my state, the Savage will rule the ML season.
Brought me more in tune with any gun that I've ever owned. Bedding, triggers, barrel conditioning, cleaning, mechanics, tools and reloading.
Now these 2 beauties sit and age gracefully collecting dust until November rolls around. A few quick shots of known combo's and they are ready. Time tested and nothing left to prove.
These guns work. Thanks to all who have helped me along the way. All you tinkerers....keep the fire in your bellies. It's what got us here.
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 7, 2010 0:08:50 GMT -5
You tell a familiar story for many. I bought the Savage 10ML2 for the sole reason of less maintenance. I hated cleaning a black powder rifle after every shooting session. Because of my stumbling across this message board my passion for the discovery process of effective smokeless shooting grew intense. I would actually dream about new powder, sabot, bullet combinations which would include sub bases and felt wads in a quest to achieve reliable and dependable sub 1" groups at 100 yards. I discovered that I actually liked cleaning my rifle after each shooting session.
As I moved up the ladder of improvements I eventually invested over $3000 in a revolutionary 6.5mm Swinglock muzzleloader which I have actually had in my hands for less than 3 months over a three year period. I should have known that revolutionary meant experimentation and discovery all over again but the wait wore me down and my interest has diminished. I still have my trusty Savage which never fails me.
Now I have found a renewed interest in archery and post here in the bow hunting session often. Also as a follower of Christ I often engage in very interesting dialog with other members in the Christian section and have made some precious friends along the way.
All in all I am grateful to Savage Arms and all of the pioneers here on this message board that lighted the fire of shooting passion within my heart. For some reason there is just something about shooting a projectile at an intended target that can't be matched by other enjoyable endeavors.
God has been good to me.
Doug
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Post by deadon on Jul 7, 2010 11:15:09 GMT -5
Both of you are good men and have helped much more that you have been helped, IMHO Thank you, Rusty
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Post by ozark on Jul 7, 2010 12:26:37 GMT -5
I think it a natural thing to get deeply involved and then after negotating the learning curve back of or maybe even quit. For many the excitement of learning and the journey to success is more pleasure than success itself. Since I earned a living by shooting for years I keep digging deeper and deeper for the interest of learning. Custom bluing, Custom checkering, installing inlays and helping teams win trophies was all fun. But we burn out some along the way. Wilms and Dougedwards are both highly educated in the field. I am shooting only my pellet rifle now because I can do that from my ramp that circles my house. It is pretty darn accurate and sometimes I get to eliminate a startling (They're darn sharp). As the old saying goes:"When we close one door another is there ready to open." I have noticed that board members here become real active and posting a lot. Then later they fade away and you wonder about them and what they are into. I get tired of it but in my case there are not a lot of alternatives. Everyone enjoy life the best you can. Variety is the spice of life but that doesn't include extra wives in most cases.
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Post by Richard on Jul 7, 2010 12:55:00 GMT -5
As other have indicated, they have "been there and done that" and so have I. As of right now, I am still on ML kick. I can see in the future where it might wind down and some other type of shooting or hobby will somewhat take its place. Benchrest shooting has sort of gotten that way. I still compete though not on the same level and with the same intensity as I previously did. I can see Herman and our friend Bill approaching benchrest as I did almost three years ago with the ML. They are full of piss and vinegar. Herman still does his share of ML shooting but probably more with the bench rifles. When I go, I almost never take any other rifle/handgun except my Savage. And so it goes.........................................  Richard |
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Post by ET on Jul 7, 2010 20:16:55 GMT -5
Wilmsmeyer
I can relate to what you are saying because the Savage fever has kind of reached a pitch for me but not totally out of my system yet. The weather is just too hot here and feel I would waste my time with saboted shooting. So I kind of been attracted back to Archery in the interim.
Also I find with the new members carrying the torch they are more diverse with the 45 & 50 and are now more knowledgeable than I currently am. I enjoy following/reading their posts and expect to learn more yet.
So until I have a relapse of Savage fever it’s time to coast for a little bit.
Ed
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Post by Harley on Jul 8, 2010 21:46:43 GMT -5
A great post, Wilms. Coincidentally, just this week I was thinking along the same line: I've done everything I ever wanted to do with my MLII. Now, it just sits there waiting for ML season, which is only 30 days. After zeroing, I may or may not get a shot at a deer, and..........that's it.
For a nanosecond, I thought about selling it and looking for something new and challenging; but, I've put so much time, money, sweat and tears into it that I know I'll never let it go.
Like a few other posters, I've made archery my current frustration.
Harley
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Post by deadeye on Jul 8, 2010 23:14:24 GMT -5
i have many of these dusted & trusted in many calibers, a real sense of accomplishment,loaned 1 of my pac/45's to friend that dusted a whitetail @ 315yds,now im gettin ready to set-up his own pac/45, mine now will be waitin for the 400 plus when applicable,conditions were just not quite right when i had a doe locked in @ 450yds last year,it will happen when the time is right,now the time is right gettin my elk/archery act together
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Post by youp50 on Jul 9, 2010 6:39:07 GMT -5
Sometimes I think about just swapping mine for some new guys stock ML. I would have a new project, but I would deprive him of a grand journey. And saddle him with an eyesore to boot. So I go fishing and wait for cooler weather.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 20:29:53 GMT -5
the fever has slowed for me as well but I look forward to the Ill gun season if I get a tag. already ranged the corn field I will be setting on,370 yds from one side to the other.I am anxious to try a big fat nanu at 300+, it might get interesting......Bill
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Post by 10ga on Jul 9, 2010 20:49:24 GMT -5
Right now it's just the 100+ temps holding things down. I always like the pre season August/September range work with the old and new guns for hunting. This season I'll have more than I can possibly break in. Last years savage which was a thrill to shoot and learn with and produced 2 very nice bucks, another custom savage new to me, a 45 smokeless ML barrel for the Encore (light and short for that sneakin and creepin and callin rattlin hunting in the rut), the often thought about and finally found "White" ML and a new #10 Browning to find a 000 buck choke for. Good thing you get 6 tags on your license and can buy "bonus tags" here in VA. (you only get 3 buck tags no matter what)
Then there is the fun of breaking in a new hunter or someone new to MLing. 2 of the boys at church are lined up for lessons with the BP/roundball hammer guns and anxious to shoot and hunt mountain man style. One of the seasoned ML hunters is interested in smokeless MLing and I'm trying to give him some guidance on dos and don'ts. It's gonna be a fun hunting season this fall. Best to all, 10 ga
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Post by sw on Jul 11, 2010 19:49:53 GMT -5
:)Wilms, I can relate also. My 40 and 2 of my 45ss are ready to go. Sighted in, loads worked up, little else left to do. I shot the 50cal 10-ML and 10-ML2 2-3X weekly, many shots each outing for over 4 years and the 45s and 40 somewhat lesser, for 3-4 years. Anyway, appx 8,000+ shots. I achieved what I wanted. Now I work on my plane(and fly it), shoot my recurve and Strykeforce x-bow, play with my 4 yo grandson, and work too much. Hunt, Oct-Feb.
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Post by zakjak221 on Jul 11, 2010 20:29:11 GMT -5
Wilms,
Well said, and as noted probably many board members share these opinions.
Many guys re-tweak their guns with a Pacnor barrel or duplex loads and the range time never ends.
Personally, if I can hit a deer's vitals out to 150 yds (consistantly)--I'm a happy Savage guy ;D.
My two cents, Mark.
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Post by spaniel on Jul 12, 2010 8:24:17 GMT -5
I went as far as I could with BP MLing, after six or seven seasons with the Omega, downright boring accuracy to 400 yds and a couple deer past 300 yds, there was nowhere to go with that and I rarely shot it except the annual validation of the drop chart and a couple dozen rounds to verify my skills. I got tired of the cleaning. This will be my first season with my converted Savage centerfire and I'm looking forward to it. I could still find areas to out-shoot this gun where I hunt (I could set up 800yd shots if I had the gun to do so) but I'm looking more to hit harder, drop less and drift less than extend range a whole lot further. I doubt I will get more adventursome than optimizing powder loads and even then only if I can find the N powders. Perhaps I'll go sabotless one day, I started out thinking that but dang 2800-2900 fps with a saboted 200SW is hardly worth improving upon. I am limited to a .45 bore in this state anyways.
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Post by boarhog on Jul 12, 2010 17:27:56 GMT -5
Me too!
I've been on the board almost 1.5 years. In theory, I should have solved all my problems and moved on to other interests. But NO!!! I am still fighting problems! I'm not satisfied just working with the Pac-Nor 45. I bought 2 more Savage 50s from board members. Each one brings along it's own set of problems to work through. I'll probably be posting to this board from the old folks home, or the Looney Bin, before I get all problems solved! If I ever do!
Boarhog
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Post by Richard on Jul 12, 2010 20:00:59 GMT -5
Don't worry Robert..........I'm still hanging in there ;D Got the truck loaded up as I type this. Will be at the range bright and early tomorrow. I have my buddy's new Savage with new PN .45 ready to try out some loads. He never bothered to shoot it as a .50 after seeing what my PN could do. So, this is a totally new Savage.
Richard
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Post by tar12 on Jul 12, 2010 21:30:23 GMT -5
Same here Wilms.she has lost her luster.I was tempted slightly by the .45 PN,but saw no sense in it for me and my local.The .50 has always done what I wanted @300yds,since I will not shoot past that self-imposed limit in the field it would have been a mute point to pursue it.There is one thing here that I will never grow tired of and that is the friendships and camaraderie's that have developed over the years and those yet to come.A toast to all of you knuckleheads! ;D
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Post by 153 on Jul 13, 2010 5:38:30 GMT -5
Wilms. I got tried of chasing my 50 for two years and went 45PN. First trip to range with PN I had what I wanted, sub MOA@100 and MOA@200. I picked up a used 50 for my son. Not as bad as my 50, as it will shoot one load consistently 1.5MOA@100 yards. If my son continues to show interest in hunting I will convert that to a PN. I love taking my PN to the range every time I go, shoot about two bug holes and smile ;D. I would rather shoot an accurate gun than pull my hair out with and inaccurate Gun.
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Post by swinglock on Jul 19, 2010 10:47:01 GMT -5
These are interesting posts that show most peoples natural tendency to seek out new and fresh things which help keep life interesting. That's why I like what I do. With every turn of the page it seems there is something new to explore.
Now, I feel a need to go off topic and give a response especially to the second paragraph of Doug's thread as made earlier. My comments are not at all intended to be inflammatory but as a Christian myself, I am a strong believer in accountability which hopefully with God's help causes me to examine every part of my life and question all that I see. When it comes to these Swing-Lock rifles, doing a good job for the customer is of first priority and it causes me great anxiety when things don't go as they should. I am truly sorry for the troubles Doug has had and believe it is proper to share any blame where I have not given adequate or proper instructions or have in some way set a bad example which helped lead Doug into trouble. Below I will try to clarify some information and explain some of the problems encountered.
To start, lets "accurrize" some of Doug's information:
First, the date on Doug's rifle quote is March 3, 2008 at a total cost of $2557.00 including shipping. His rifle was shipped on June 29, 2009; so Doug has actually owned his rifle for a little more that one year. Even so, with the troubles experienced, I can understand that it probably feels like 3 years to him. I'm sure the $3000 comes as the result of adding in cost for extra parts, wasted bullets, etc.
Now, lets use some reasoning which I think is sound:
Whenever you are in the process of using something that is completely new and you run into problems, the first thing that the user needs to do is ask is; am I doing this right and did I follow all instructions given? Remember, this rifle has been thoroughly tested and shot many, many times with good results before being shipped. If there are still problems even after you have followed all of the instructions exactly, then, the next question to ask is; did the manufacturer give me good and thorough instructions? With that, lets take a look at the actual problems encountered.
There were two major difficulties which were cause for trouble.
The first problem right from the beginning was obtaining bullets that fit the bore properly. Doug immediately ran into trouble with bullets that were much too tight and had to be hammered down to load. Initially, bullets specified were .257 diameter and required knurling to obtain the necessary fit. A challenging proposition not to mention differences encountered with different brands / types of bullets. The loading instructions stated that the bullets must be knurled such that they can be loaded "without unreasonable effort ." To add another variable, Doug was shooting in temps over 100 degrees F. It is highly probable that both the very tight bullet fit and high temperatures lead to extreme overpressure which resulted in a cracked carbide orifice, deformed breech seal and slightly stretched ( about .0015" on the diameter ) powder chamber inside the breech. It would have been wise if no attempt had been made to shoot those tight bullets, but that is an issue where I accept a good bit of blame because at the very beginning of my testing, I also had to pound down the first 3 bullets to load. I had set a bad example....Neat thing about it was those first 3 bullets made one tiny oblong worm hole. Wow, this gun is accurate! So, no wonder, I gave a full report. But, as I recall, the pressure traces were also very high. Regarding the temperature and its probable affects on load pressure, I also take issue with the loading instructions given. The rifle was never tested in temps any where near 100 degrees and nothing was stated in the loading data to give caution or give corrective measures. Doug had to return the rifle so that I could evaluate and then repair all damages which included a new orifice seal, extensive machining to replace the powder chamber, refinish the metal and retest. All was done no charge. At the same time, I also made Doug the new full form adjustable bullet sizing die and tested his rifle extensively using the new full formed 6.5mm bullets which in my opinion are the best bullets to use in any sabotless rifle. They seal great, load easily, require no wads, are very accurate and shoot to high speed with lower pressure. Doug was given that technology "Free of Charge." It is still worth the wait!
Next, the tight bullet problem leads to bullets getting stuck in the barrel which lead to the next major problem:
Proper cleaning after removal of the bullet.
Here is what happens in this situation. One obvious way to remove a stuck bullet is to disassemble the rifle, remove the breech plug and then using the special tool provided pull the breech seal out the rear of the breech. The bullet can then be driven with a rod out the muzzle. But, this is what happens after the breech seal is pulled; smokeless powder from the chamber dumps into the breech plug recess where it can cause real trouble if it is not thoroughly removed by blasting out with gun scrubber or brake cleaner. It should then be examined visually under good light. If powder grains are left in the breech recess, they can be trapped against the shoulder where the seal mates at assembly. This is the only time a shooter needs to be very thorough at cleaning. During normal cleaning smokeless grains will not be present and all that is required is to clean the ignition passage, powder chamber and barrel using essentially the same methods as other rifles. But, to get back on track, if powder grains do get trapped against the seal shoulder, it then becomes impossible to screw the breech plug fully into place where it must come into perfect alignment with an index mark. If those index marks are not in perfect alignment, it is then impossible to properly screw in the primer adaptor where it must make a good seal inside the breech plug. If the primer adaptor is not fully screwed in place, it will be very hard if not impossible to close the action after priming and since the primer adaptor is not properly seated for a good seal, there will also be a major leak where the ignition impulse cannot fully reach the powder charge. That is a major cause for misfires or poor ignition. Doug had considerable problems in that regard with associated misfires. OK, now having said all of that, I need to ask myself; at the start, did I give Doug adequate instructions about cleaning especially with regards to removal of a stuck bullet? No! My fault. I honestly don't believe I did. Probably because I am so used to using these rifles that most of the essential knowledge needed to stay out of trouble is just automatic for me. In the 6.5 caliber the number of misfires experienced through all of the testing done including Swing-Locks own test gun could probably be counted on one hand. I personally can't recall ever having a problem such as above described, and I hence failed to give Doug fair warning. To help Doug with cleaning as above described I have given him extra tools for added efficiency free of charge.
So, another very long post that needs a summary:
My position is that even from the very beginning there was really never anything wrong with Doug's rifle. But, things perhaps would have gone much better had I provided better instructions.
If proper bullets are used with correct loads, proper cleaning and assembly, the rifle will work just fine.
Doug, as I told you before, you are almost there! When you get in the mood or feel so inclined, give it another try and don't forget to call me if you have any questions. or problems.
Best to all,
Tom Post
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Post by joes1986 on Jul 19, 2010 15:48:14 GMT -5
Doug and Tom,
I know that I am a new poster to the forum, and by forum subculture rules, I should keep my mouth shut, but here it goes:
Doug first (simply because his post came first):
What you said could easily be seen as a criticism in a place where perhaps it doesn't belong. You took the opportunity to take a knock at swinglock publicly where it wasn't central to the topic. Did you expect Tom not to defend his work? Things like "Swinglock muzzleloader which I have actually had in my hands for less than 3 months over a three year period... the wait wore me down" is fairly serious. Pointing out that your savage "never fails you" does imply that swinglock does fail you. You may not have wanted to make a swipe at Tom, but, as an outsider, I can see why he believes you did. Also, "responses and correction" are a good thing, that should at least make you pause. I don't know, but I can't see myself how Tom's response could make you feel as though your ideas, thoughts or emotions were violated.
Tom:
Like Doug said, the forum may not have been the best place to respond. While you seem to have made some true points, maybe a person to person message would have been a better start, though I understand wanting to publicly defend your reputation.
I am very impressed how professionally you both dealt with it, overall. In most forums a flame war would have started and there would be much vulgarity and mudslinging. Props to the Doug's Boards members for behaving like reasonable adults!
Heh, now lets see if the tread can get back on topic. Didn't see this coming a couple weeks ago, did you wilmsmeyer? ;-)
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 19, 2010 17:53:06 GMT -5
After deleting a couple of posts here I need to say that Tom Post of Swinglock has always treated me with courtesy and kindness and is a gentleman in every sense of the word. Any disagreements that I have with him are business in nature and are not personal in any way. I made a mistake of revealing some of my frustration with the Swinglock in a post that had nothing to do with products. For that I apologize to Tom and to the members of Doug's Message Board. It is often that I have to remind myself of my human condition which is full of arrogance and indignation.
OK now if I can only get myself excited about shooting again. ;D
Doug
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Post by DBinNY on Jul 19, 2010 22:18:10 GMT -5
Wilms, you just need to take those two beauties out and shoot some woodchucks with them to get enthused again. I can see how your County going to CF rifle for deer is taking some of the shine off the muzzleloaders. In a way, I'm glad my County isn't. That leaves me with a gun that is ridiculously above average.
I still need to re-confirm my hunting loads since I bedded and third pillared it but there's no rush (especially in this heat). I'm having no problems removing heads from woodchucks (got one tonight) with 200 gr XTPs (.45 Pac Nor) and that's entertainment enough for now. It also suggests that the gun is shooting just fine. I'll shoot the 200 gr SSTs and 195 Barnes when it cools off, go slow, and enjoy the journey. Then there are slower powders, duplex and saboless if the mood strikes me....
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Post by savagebrother on Jul 22, 2010 14:39:24 GMT -5
i havent posted for a while, like alot of you my .45 sits and waits for the season to start. and that season could be any state that lets me hunt with it. i started out in june of 2000 with a ml10-1 had 2 of them. leaky modules and all. it slayed the deer though and i was hooked. this has been a great journey of fun, enlightenment, and most of all friendship with some of the best people i have ever come to know. its funny how one gun can bring so many people together over so long a time. i wish thqat the loed blesses all of you and that his grace and love shower down on you and your families and thanks for being such great people.
terry
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Post by deadon on Jul 22, 2010 20:34:21 GMT -5
After deleting a couple of posts here I need to say that Tom Post of Swinglock has always treated me with courtesy and kindness and is a gentleman in every sense of the word. Any disagreements that I have with him are business in nature and are not personal in any way. I made a mistake of revealing some of my frustration with the Swinglock in a post that had nothing to do with products. For that I apologize to Tom and to the members of Doug's Message Board. It is often that I have to remind myself of my human condition which is full of arrogance and indignation. OK now if I can only get myself excited about shooting again. ;D Doug Doug and everyone who has posted on this thread, I am an ole man who still has dreams.  Don't any of you go anywhere because there are a bunch of folks out here who need you ;D Most of you have expressed that you have found new challenges and IMHO that is great because If ya ain't learning and growing, your dieing. Thanks for all your help and I need more ;D Rusty |
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Post by deadon on Jul 22, 2010 20:45:28 GMT -5
i havent posted for a while, like alot of you my .45 sits and waits for the season to start. and that season could be any state that lets me hunt with it. i started out in june of 2000 with a ml10-1 had 2 of them. leaky modules and all. it slayed the deer though and i was hooked. this has been a great journey of fun, enlightenment, and most of all friendship with some of the best people i have ever come to know. its funny how one gun can bring so many people together over so long a time. i wish thqat the loed blesses all of you and that his grace and love shower down on you and your families and thanks for being such great people. terry Sir, that post got me even more excited, God is good. Thank you, Rusty |
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esmd
8 Pointer
Bill Drain
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Post by esmd on Jul 25, 2010 9:45:23 GMT -5
Wilms pretty much sums up where I'm at with my Savage. In short, I'm there. I've got it so dialed in, and am so happy with my preferred load (60g N-120 underneath a 300g Barnes Original in the orange MMP sabot), that my gun has sat in the rack after it's '09/'10 post season cleaning.
Let me just say, that you all have taught me so much along the way, that I'd probably never have gotten to this point without this board and it's members. Or at least, taken A LOT longer to get here. To all of you who've helped with advice, suggestions, or some experimental components along the way- THANKS. :-)
Now I find myself giving my brother pointers as he experiments with his Savage. He prefers to stick with the book powders, and I managed to find some old cans of IMR SR-4759. He's shooting that under the 250g Hornady FTX (basically the SST). I've got him trying the different .452 sabots for fit and accuracy, he's having himself a heckuva good time when he can get out to the range (2 year old twins restrict him a bit in that endeavor, lol).
Anyway, I still check in, read the posts, and keep track on how everyone is doing. Archery season opens here in MD on 9/15, it's getting closer, gents!
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Post by bigmoose on Jul 25, 2010 11:33:09 GMT -5
I have my own approach, with my RB Special, I don't experiment with different bullets or load, that rifle can shoot its self, I will never get tired of shooting small groups, sometime one holers, if for no other reason, than the reaction, of others at the the range, "you did that with a muzzleloader", Hey, look what this guy did with a ML", Its a fake, the holes were it the target before he shot"
Now with my 50, I'll try any safe load, I have Rick's charts as a guide, and since I can't bug Rick, I can ask Sir Edge for the info I need,
I wish I could find a handful off the titanium shot 500gr solids, Rick once said they could be shoot at close to 2000fps, Now that's a Muzzle load. I think along with wood I would have to put sheets of diamond plate for my penetration tests, and an old very dead tree for a backstop.
I have a with check upwith my Cardio Doc on Monday, my family Doctor [best friend], wants me to ask if heavy recoiling rifle can effect the stents in my heart??
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Don't any of you go anywhere because there are a bunch of folks out here who need you ;D Most of you have expressed that you have found new challenges and IMHO that is great because If ya ain't learning and growing, your dieing. Thanks for all your help and I need more ;D Rusty
