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Post by dougedwards on Sept 7, 2009 14:50:06 GMT -5
I am not sure about the placement of this thread. My old brain just doesn't operate categorically so I am hoping that the moderators will send this where it should be. Went to the range today to test some proven loads and also do some experimenting with loads with my two 50 cal Savage muzzleloaders. First is a duplex load, 15/55 of N110 under Alliant 10x and 250 gr Hornady SST shot from a 10ml2 with unaltered action and blued barreled, stock that came from a Savage 10 short action series Varmiter in .243 and RB recessed plug.  Notice the 8 oz 4x32 Weaver shotgun scope. She is a jewel but with only 4x of magnification and a regular duplex reticle the scope is a disadvantage for really long range shooting. At 100 yards it serves very well.  Shot #1 is from a cleaned barrel and shots 2,3 and 4 measured 5/8ths of an inch. Total of 4 shots was just under 1". This load averages 2600 fps. Next is also a proven load except with a sabot change. It is 72 grains 10x with 300 gr XTP. I usually shoot this with a Harvester Black Crush Rib but this time tried the .458 bullet with MMP #24 sabots. This load was shot with a recently purchased Savage 10ML2 action and stainless barrel and I separately bought a thumbhole laminate stock for it. The scope is a WCE 2.5-10x56. All shots were taken on the lowest power in 75 degree temps with a gusty 18 mph wind coming in at 8 o'clock.   Definitely some vertical stringing going on here not typical for a load that usually shoots very well at 300 yards. Thirdly I experimented with a load that has already proven itself undependable but thought I would try it again with a different sabot. 45 caliber Scorpion of 240 grains with a Harvester Black Crush Rib sabot and 43 grains N110. Results were what I expected.  In light of the recent trend toward the 45 and 40 caliber barrels, my purpose for posting these targets is to show that the 50 caliber muzzleloader is also capable of very good accuracy with a little work and testing. You never know exactly what your particular barrel will like until you do a little experimenting with components. While I was at the range I noticed that the fellow shooter in the next stall was shooting from a very unique and sturdy looking shooting rest. Since the subject of shooting rests has been recently discussed in this forum I decided to ask him about the one he was using. It is a Shooters Ridge Zero Kick rest and the 25 lb weight was bought at Walmart for $9.95 and the holes in the weight also act as a handle for the unit. Total weight is under 40 lbs.  This shooter actually attached the unit to the front of the shooting bench by way of a bungee cord and his 7mm Browning did not move the shooting rest at all as he shot. Notice the strap in the back that cradles the butt of the stock. It is elevation and windage adjustable in the front and elevation adjustable in the rear. Also the four feet with casters offer additional support for leveling. If anyone has any experience with this shooting rest I would love to hear what you think of it. I have been saving for a Caldwell DFT Sled but this one appears much more sturdy and practical with a much lighter price tag. You also don't have to lug around bags of lead. Let me know what you think?? trophys.dealerease.net/catalog/product.asp?ret_id=806356&pid=62598 Doug |
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Post by kevin k on Sept 7, 2009 15:39:28 GMT -5
Very nice shooting Doug i know the 50s shoot good thats why i had to get another gun for 45 couldn't take mine apart boy that ist gun loves that combo does it shoot as well in the other gun? dont know anthing about the rest other than it looks good. kevin k
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Post by tar12 on Sept 7, 2009 17:41:18 GMT -5
People lose sight of how well the .50 will shoot.Excellent shooting Doug.
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 7, 2009 20:31:08 GMT -5
Very nice shooting Doug i know the 50s shoot good thats why i had to get another gun for 45 couldn't take mine apart boy that ist gun loves that combo does it shoot as well in the other gun? dont know anthing about the rest other than it looks good. kevin k Kevin......the stainless barrel seems to like 300 grain bullets and usually shoots better than it did today with them. Another thing tried today was no swabbing between shots. That could have affected the accuracy. Each gun responds best to a particular load and we only need to invest the time to discover what load/ loads they are and record the results. Doug |
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Post by rbinar on Sept 7, 2009 21:52:36 GMT -5
8-)That's some good shooting. I don't think anyone would regret shooting a rifle that does this good at most any range.
There are not many who would be trying to change much with a rifle that really shoots. Unfortunately not all 50s will do this well. 45 caliber would not be near as popular if it wasn't for so many who have had it trying to make a 50 do as well as they wish.
In fact the last 4 shooters who asked me for conversion have told me it's because they have given up on getting either accuracy or consistency from their 50 caliber barrel.
Now any reader can decide if I'm trying to over rate the 45 or give the 50 a bashing. But there are many who don't get what they want until they have gone to 45 or 40.
For those who have really accurate 50 caliber rifles, you have a gem indeed.
As far as your load it does not surprise me at all that you are having exceptional results with 10X single and duplex.
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Post by chuck41 on Sept 7, 2009 22:20:46 GMT -5
Really fine shooting. I might expect such from a 45 or 40, but that is really impressive with an "original". Also very impressive to see such results with only a 4 power scope! That takes some doing for sure.
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Post by rossman40 on Sept 7, 2009 22:31:34 GMT -5
You might try revisting the Scorpions with te red crush ribs. I can not get the black crush ribs to group in mine with .451-.452" bullets.
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 8, 2009 6:17:13 GMT -5
8-)That's some good shooting. I don't think anyone would regret shooting a rifle that does this good at most any range. There are not many who would be trying to change much with a rifle that really shoots. Unfortunately not all 50s will do this well. 45 caliber would not be near as popular if it wasn't for so many who have had it trying to make a 50 do as well as they wish. In fact the last 4 shooters who asked me for conversion have told me it's because they have given up on getting either accuracy or consistency from their 50 caliber barrel. Now any reader can decide if I'm trying to over rate the 45 or give the 50 a bashing. But there are many who don't get what they want until they have gone to 45 or 40. For those who have really accurate 50 caliber rifles, you have a gem indeed. As far as your load it does not surprise me at all that you are having exceptional results with 10X single and duplex. Is this really an apples to apples comparison that you make? Is the 50 caliber Pac Nor barrel really that inferior to it's 45 caliber counter-part? It is just a question on my part since I have no experience with a 50 caliber custom made barrel. It stands to reason that if a shooter wants to spend $400+ to rebarrel his Savage 10ML with a Pac Nor that he will probably have a better shooter but does it really have that much to do with caliber? Actually the Savage that shot the duplex load does not always shoot that same load as well but always under 1 1/4". At one time that same rifle with a synthetic stock was shipped back to Savage because I, in frustration, could not get it to shoot. Savage was kind enough to send it back to me with a target with three holes that measured just over an inch. They also sent the scope that was used to shoot this target with the gun so I could test it myself. I discovered that the problem wasn't my gun but my scope. If not for some of the frustration of getting this smokeless muzzleloader to shoot I doubt that there would be a Doug's Message Board. My point is that most Savage muzzleloaders are capable of shooting reasonably well if the time and effort is invested in them. This board has served as an invaluable source of information and help towards that end. But isn't this discovery process part of the joy of shooting? Someone on the board recently mentioned that Bad Bull muzzleloaders only endorse one load to be shot from their rifles. How boring is that?? I don't see any Bad Bull message boards. No doubt that they are good shooters and they should be but for some of us the means by which we attain good markmanship is every bit as valuable as the end to which we strive. You will never see a Savage barrel at a bench rest competition for sure. They are not designed for that. However if it is hunting accuracy that you are after then the Savage 10ML2 will probably fit the bill for your needs. If it doesn't you can always send it back to Savage and demand that they send you a rifle that will shoot. But like me you might be embarrassed when they send a target back to you with the gun. Sometimes attaining accuracy takes a little work and experimentation. Getting these two rifles to shoot has been a frustrating and rewarding experience. Rossman......thanks for the tip. I just ordered some Red Crush Rib sabots from Midsouth to try with the Scorpions. Doug |
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 8, 2009 16:20:25 GMT -5
" I have been saving for a Caldwell DFT Sled but this one appears much more sturdy and practical with a much lighter price tag. You also don't have to lug around bags of lead. Let me know what you think??"
Hey Doug!! Get the Shooter's Ridge Zero Kick Rest and don't EVEN
think you will have need to "look back"! I just got one and have used
it in two range practices so far. The windage adjustment is priceless...
no more final cranking from one side to the other, placing pressure
on one side of the stock to get right on target horizontally. I wouldn't
trade this thing for a Caldwell DFT straight across, even steven, no
matter how much more proud Caldwell is of their lead sled. This thing
will get you EXACTLY on target. With the 25# barbell weight, the
"kick" I've received from the 7mm WSM and the .45 PacNor Savage
is very little more than my Rem788 in .22-250!!
I LOVE IT!!
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 8, 2009 18:27:47 GMT -5
Danno.......I really don't think I needed much convincing but I think you just pushed me over the edge.  Doug |
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Post by boarhog on Sept 8, 2009 19:07:43 GMT -5
Rossman40,
I thought the Harvester Black CR sabots were for .458 bullets. At least, that is what I have been using with them, and I use the Red CR for .451-2
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Post by ET on Sept 8, 2009 19:39:21 GMT -5
Doug
It is always a joy seeing what a shooter and load can do when dedication of striving for the best possible is applied.
Absolutely nice shooting.
Ed
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Post by rossman40 on Sept 9, 2009 1:02:40 GMT -5
The Harvester black crush ribs started out for .451-.452 bullets which the combo was just too loose in a Savage 10ML. I got about 200 when they first came out from Bill MacTavish (the guy behind Claybuster and Harvester) when I talked to him at the Grand American one year. I passed a bunch of them out and I suggested to one of the board members to try them with .458 bullets and they seemed to work great and guys have been using them since. Harvester packages .451-.452 bullets with them.
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Post by KerryB on Sept 10, 2009 18:38:31 GMT -5
Danno.......I really don't think I needed much convincing but I think you just pushed me over the edge. Doug Hey buddy, Danno is absolutely correct about this Zero Kick rest from Shooters Ridge. It is a dandy and i have several buddies that use lead sled rests and they all would trade for my Zero Kick in a heartbeat. I have the same Wally World 25lb weight on mine, but the price for those weights is $25 and not $10. I have never seen them on sale either.  The upside is that the benchrest is only $118 or so, and that is a steal for a nice solid one piece rest like this. It is really solid and holds your rifle perfectly still, even if the shooter is not so steady. The dual windage adjustments on front and back are great and the four rubber feet for leveling the rest are nice too. I do wish that the windage adjustment on the front had a fraction less slop, but it is absolutely fine for the price of this rest. The leather bags that come with this rest are already filled with sand and it is ready to use right out of the box. The only thing i did to mine was apply some vinyl electricians tape to the rails where the barbell weight lays. This is just to prevent wearing the paint off from friction and really isn't necessary unless you are as picky as me.  I also greased the elevation screws and friction points to smooth out the operation. I wouldn't trade mine for a half dozen lead sleds! Don't wait! Order one now! ;D |
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 10, 2009 19:14:44 GMT -5
I ordered the Zero Kick shooting rest yesterday and I am anxious to try it out. I am not happy about paying $25 for a weight since I have many of them in my garage where I used to work out  but none of them have the holes in them to use as handles. I will report on my findings of using this shooting rest in the Hunting Gear section when I finally get a chance to test it. Doug |
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Post by jims on Sept 12, 2009 8:14:40 GMT -5
Nice shooting.
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Post by zakjak221 on Sept 12, 2009 10:24:35 GMT -5
Nice Shootin, Dead Deer!!
;D
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Post by bigmoose on Sept 12, 2009 10:24:40 GMT -5
Very nice shooting. Maybe next time tape the quarter to the target, and hit it.
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Post by KerryB on Sept 12, 2009 19:12:04 GMT -5
Doug,
How do you like that WCE 2.5-10x56 scope? I like them so well that i now own 3 of them! Great scope for the money........
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 12, 2009 20:41:50 GMT -5
Kerry.......I only bought the scope because it was on sale and thought I would test it against some of the higher end scopes in dim light. Then I thought I would probably just ship it back to Natchez since Weaver has not been known to produce good quality optics in the last 10 years. Boy was I shocked! To my suprise the 2.5-10x50 WCE was just as clear and brought in a useable sight picture just as long into the darkness as my Kahles CL 3-9x42 set on the same size exit pupil.
I now have both the 2.5-10x50 and 56mm versions with one of the best illuminated reticles I have ever seen. The other is on a Rem700 varmit gun in .243 and doesn't encounter a lot of recoil but this one has held up to these heavy 300 grain bullets with over 70 grains of powder blasts and is still spot on.
I think Weaver is proving itself as once again a quality optics company to contend with the best of them. This particular model was the deal of the century at the price Natchez has them.
Doug
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Post by KerryB on Sept 13, 2009 21:35:11 GMT -5
Kerry.......I only bought the scope because it was on sale and thought I would test it against some of the higher end scopes in dim light. Then I thought I would probably just ship it back to Natchez since Weaver has not been known to produce good quality optics in the last 10 years. Boy was I shocked! To my suprise the 2.5-10x50 WCE was just as clear and brought in a useable sight picture just as long into the darkness as my Kahles CL 3-9x42 set on the same size exit pupil. I now have both the 2.5-10x50 and 56mm versions with one of the best illuminated reticles I have ever seen. The other is on a Rem700 varmit gun in .243 and doesn't encounter a lot of recoil but this one has held up to these heavy 300 grain bullets with over 70 grains of powder blasts and is still spot on. I think Weaver is proving itself as once again a quality optics company to contend with the best of them. This particular model was the deal of the century at the price Natchez has them. Doug Yup, for the money, i just can't think of another 56mm, side focus, lighted reticle scope that can compare...........  |
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 15, 2009 22:06:30 GMT -5
Last Thursday I attempted to purchase the Shooters Ridge Zero Kick shooting rest from Trophyhuntinggear.com but could not get them to accept my credit card. Their automated system said that the home address given didn't match that of the credit card. I subsequently did a three way call with my bank and Trophyhuntinggear.com and although the bank verified my address, the online retailer suggested that I send them a money order for the last remaining Zero Kick rest they had in stock. I complied and today received a voice mail message that they had made a mistake as they actually had none in stock and had no idea when others might come in.
As a customer I feel of little value to this company that actually seems eager to send the money order back to me rather than try to compensate in some way. The price of $131 shipped was the best that I could find but certainly not if it is unavailable.
Does anyone know of where I can purchase this shooting rest for under $140 shipped?
Doug
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Post by minst7877 on Sept 16, 2009 10:12:31 GMT -5
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 16, 2009 21:24:55 GMT -5
Would $108 before shipping tickle yer fancy? www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0009740805My total came to $122.74 including shipping. It was to my door in less than 5 business days. And they didn't jack me around about my credit card (but then, I've ordered from them a few times before this order). |
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 16, 2009 21:42:35 GMT -5
Would $108 before shipping tickle yer fancy? www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0009740805My total came to $122.74 including shipping. It was to my door in less than 5 business days. And they didn't jack me around about my credit card (but then, I've ordered from them a few times before this order). Strange thing is when I checked with Midsouth before today they were $125 plus $15 shipping and today they have this shooting rest for $108 and only $12 shipping if shipped to my business. Must be my lucky day! I ordered one today along with some other supplies. Thanks guys for the help. Will report on the Zero Kick shooting rest after I get a chance to test it. Doug |
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The upside is that the benchrest is only $118 or so, and that is a steal for a nice solid one piece rest like this. It is really solid and holds your rifle perfectly still, even if the shooter is not so steady. The dual windage adjustments on front and back are great and the four rubber feet for leveling the rest are nice too. I do wish that the windage adjustment on the front had a fraction less slop, but it is absolutely fine for the price of this rest. The leather bags that come with this rest are already filled with sand and it is ready to use right out of the box. The only thing i did to mine was apply some vinyl electricians tape to the rails where the barbell weight lays. This is just to prevent wearing the paint off from friction and really isn't necessary unless you are as picky as me. 
I also greased the elevation screws and friction points to smooth out the operation. I wouldn't trade mine for a half dozen lead sleds! Don't wait! Order one now! ;D 
but none of them have the holes in them to use as handles. 
