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Post by Al on Jun 5, 2009 19:25:15 GMT -5
Every once in awhile, there has been some discussion and questions on bullet construction, so I did some cut ups to show the construction along with some measurements of base and sidewall thickness. Pardon the poor machining, deburring, and pics, but from left to right, 250gr SST Flex Tip, 250gr SW, and 300gr Bonded SW. As you can see, they are of identical construction for the most part, (the 300gr SST/SW's are the same as the 300gr Bonded SW also). Base thickness is .050, sidewall .035 just below the ojive. Dunno what it is with tipped bullets, but darn near everyone I've cut has had a void in the tip. 275gr ringed Parker, (Bob added 3 rings for some testing I want to do sabotless). Base thickness is .030, sidewall .021. 325gr .458 Hornady Flex Tip, base thickness .050, sidewall .040 just under the cannuler where the interlock is. The wad of copper on the right side of the tip, is one of the heavy scallops folds they add to the nose for expansion, and me not having it squared up right in the vise.   Below Left to right 250gr .452 XTP, base thickness .025, sidewall .025, this bullet is canted a little in the pic (and not deburred so well), making the sidwall look thicker, but it's .025. (300gr version is the same construction but with a extra cannuler) 240gr .452 XTP mag, base thickness .050, sidewall .040 (300gr version is of the same construction also, no wonder these are tuff lil suckers) 300gr .451 Speer Unicore, plating thickness is .015 all around. 300gr .451 Speer Gold Dot, plating thickness is .035 all around. The copper dot centered across the cannuler, is the bottom of the Gold Dot. These were intened for the 454 Cassul, there were some expansion pics posted on the MM board awhile back, pretty impressive. www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9552&highlight=gold+dot300gr .458 Speer Unicore, plating thickness .022 all around.  I have some high hopes for a couple of those Speers sabotless, the plating is bonded on pretty good, I've twisted and crushed a couple of them trying to get the plating to peel, but no dice. Just hope it's not too soft to cause copper fouling. Comment away guys.  |
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Post by smokeeter on Jun 5, 2009 19:54:28 GMT -5
It's easy to see why the Parkers shoot so well for everyone in a sabotless application, I just wonder how/why they do so well on game, at least deer sized.
Nice work Al.
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Post by ET on Jun 5, 2009 19:54:55 GMT -5
Al
Thanks for taking the time to provide an insight into certain bullets internally.
My favorite deer load has been with 250SW's over 250SST's and with what I see the 250 Flex Tip should preform the same with Savage Speeds. It will be interesting to find out this fall as I don't see an accuracy issue occuring.
Ed
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jun 5, 2009 20:24:35 GMT -5
Nice Pix. The XTP mags don't look that tough. At least not when we push them over 2500 fps and they were meant for BIG handguns moving them at MAYBE 2000 fps.
Interesting and worth the time to do it. Got any cutaways of a TMZ? ;D Now that would look tough!
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Post by Richard on Jun 5, 2009 21:22:45 GMT -5
Al...........thanks for posting those pictures. A great comparison.
Richard
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Post by Dave W on Jun 5, 2009 21:28:25 GMT -5
It's easy to see why the Parkers shoot so well for everyone in a sabotless application, I just wonder how/why they do so well on game, at least deer sized. Nice work Al. The BE's are definitely the easiest bullet I have tried sabotless. The uneven sidewall on the SST/SW's explains why they size differently along the bearing surface. The base is always smaller with less spring-back versus the thinner wall at the top of the bearing surface where the most spring-back occurs. Excellent post Al.  Any chance this could be added to the Tips & Hints section moderators? |
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Post by kevin k on Jun 5, 2009 21:43:51 GMT -5
thanks AL very nice they sure look the same dont they thanks for your time on this. kevin
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Post by jims on Jun 5, 2009 22:19:05 GMT -5
Dave W's comment makes sense to me as regards to saving this and ease of refinding this later.
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Post by Al on Jun 6, 2009 4:35:20 GMT -5
Paul, I think it maybe in part to the angle of the nose and how it promotes expansion, think Harley had a pic of one on the old board from a deer he had shot and it was pretty nice looking. One things for sure, not many have had accuracy issues with them.
Wilms, I have a couple of the 300gr XTP mags recovered from deer from my Knight days, they expanded just fine down to the cannuler, retained weight was around 240gr, took frontal shots to catch them thou. I may have a TMZ if that's the same bullet Federal uses in their 20ga slug loads.
Dave, for sabotless sizing your absoultly right, there is a good .0005 difference in springback on that heavier wall portion. The Parkers, Speers, and the thinner jacketed .458 Remmys I have done all came out fine. We'll keep hammering away thou and see if a fix can be made.
If you guys want to see something else, let me know and I'll see what I have or can find and add it in.
I'm pretty anal on bullet construction for hunting loads in my CF rifles, and the way these ML's can perform today, good bullets are a must.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jun 6, 2009 5:58:09 GMT -5
I've seen a recovered 300 gr XTP-MAX slug too. Perfect expansion....and it was shot from a knight at 1600 fps. Some have claimed "little" holes in and "little" ones out....but I've never seen anyone post a recovered bullet....and I've always wondered how folks can gauge a .45 cal hole in a deer hide vs. a 60-70 cal hole. All the hide stretching, tearing. I don't even try to guess. Some even claim to lose deer with "perfect" hits with it.  It would be nice to cross section a .40 XTP. Seem like this bullet has been getting a lot of press with the 40 & 45'ers. |
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Post by chuck41 on Jun 6, 2009 9:37:18 GMT -5
I've seen a recovered 300 gr XTP-MAX slug too. Perfect expansion....and it was shot from a knight at 1600 fps. Some have claimed "little" holes in and "little" ones out....but I've never seen anyone post a recovered bullet....and I've always wondered how folks can gauge a .45 cal hole in a deer hide vs. a 60-70 cal hole. All the hide stretching, tearing. I don't even try to guess. Some even claim to lose deer with "perfect" hits with it. It would be nice to cross section a .40 XTP. Seem like this bullet has been getting a lot of press with the 40 & 45'ers. The reason is it is one of the few players in the game other than the very expensive one $ a pop bullets. I have resized a couple of others to go with them. A 41 Mag 210gr XTP and a similar Remington 210 Soft Point. The Ranier bullets are an inexpensive option to the XTPs in 40 and 45. They appear to shoot almost identical to the XTPs, but have a thin copper plating. Would be nice to see those in section. I suspect the plating is thinner than the Speer Unicore, but am only guessing.  Barnes 195 all copper, 200gr 40 XTP, 210gr 41M XTP (resized to 40), 41M 210gr REM SP (resized to 40) |
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Post by Harley on Jun 6, 2009 9:59:17 GMT -5
Thanks, Al, for the display and the work that went into it. Here's the recovered 275 Parker BE, after a 319 yard, shoulder blade and two ribs penetration. It retained about 78% (I could look it up, but don't quite remember).   Harley |
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Post by craigf on Jun 6, 2009 10:09:19 GMT -5
Al, great job! I agree with Dave on this one should make the tips and hints section.
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Post by Al on Jun 6, 2009 10:19:01 GMT -5
Chuck, I did a 300gr Rainer awhile back, then peeled the plating off, .004 thick. I tried them sabotless once, completly missed my 32" square target backer and had a mess of lead in the barrel.
I have shot some of their 40cals in sabots, accuracy was a hair off of a 200gr XTP at 100yds, not sure what they will do past that, but good enough for the price.
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Post by boarhog on Jun 6, 2009 11:29:51 GMT -5
Seems like I remember seeing Ranier Bullets as not recommended for over 1500 or maybe it was 1800 fps? Maybe it was in the Midway catalog. Not sure if that was because of faster speeds causing lead contamination when shooting indoors, or some other reason.
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Post by onecardchuck on Jun 6, 2009 11:38:24 GMT -5
Al,
Great job even though you are looking for .45 cal sabotless contenders you have helped me emensily in choosing some bullets I want to shoot sabotless in my .50 cal with this post. I like the slightly thicker walls of the speer gold dot and the hornady ftx. This is beacuse I am going to get them in 300 grain and try them with N120 as close to 2500 fps as I can get and I want the bullet to stay together at this speed. Also, since I have to knurl them up to .504 from .500 to get them to load a little tight in my gun the thicker wall helps in that department too. I will probalby even try the barnes 275 grain XTP that wilms had showed some success with this bullet in his trials with .50 cal sabotless shooting.
By the way thanks again for sharing your wads with me I will put them to good use soon and post back with my results.
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larry
8 Pointer
Posts: 172
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Post by larry on Jun 6, 2009 12:27:20 GMT -5
Al, Very nice work. My 45 barrel should be here in a few wks. and I plan on testing some of these bullets. I plan to start with the 200sst and 200xtp and blue harvester sabot. Any idea of the jacket thickness for these.
They should be good for southern whitetails.
My recovered 275BE on a 300lb Canadian deer shot at 80yds. didn,t look anything like Harley,s . All I found was a piece of the jacket. Larry
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Post by chuck41 on Jun 6, 2009 17:26:01 GMT -5
Seems like I remember seeing Ranier Bullets as not recommended for over 1500 or maybe it was 1800 fps? Maybe it was in the Midway catalog. Not sure if that was because of faster speeds causing lead contamination when shooting indoors, or some other reason. The Ranier's definitely have a velocity limit, but then again the Hornady 200gr XTP is only recommended for 1100fps velocity. I have shot the Ranier's at up to 2400fps in sabots and similar velocities sabotless in my 40. Never had a problem, but I would NOT use them for game. Their light construction would fare even poorer than the XTPs and I think they are too light. I never tried the Raniers sabotless with my high velocity loads (2700fps+) so don't know what they might do there. I do know that they are fabulous for turtles at moderate speeds. At 100yd range I could never tell a bit of difference in them and the similar XTPs for accuracy with any load in my 50 and with the lighter loads in my 40 sabotless. A lot of bang for the buck. (No pun intended ;D ) |
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Post by encoreguy on Jun 7, 2009 8:47:24 GMT -5
AI, thanks for the very useful post! This should be helpful to everyone! I also vote to put it in the hints section.
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Post by dave d. on Jun 7, 2009 9:24:13 GMT -5
:)al great work as usual.sure does bring some light to bullet characteristics.
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Any chance this could be added to the Tips & Hints section moderators?
