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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 18:08:15 GMT -5
( MODERATOR ADDED NOTE THAT THIS IS A .45 CALIBER RIFLE, if incorrect please modify this post to reflect the correct caliber per: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless&action=display&thread=4039 edge. )First off I would like to start off by saying that I might have over reacted on my last post. Thinking about that day the wind was gusting and I shouldn't have been shooting! Today's range results---- Optima Elite 45 Slufoot Conversion All shots were taken at 100 yards No Wind and temp was right at 70 degrees First group 200 xtp no knurl 56 grains IMR 4198 Winchester 209  Second Group 200 XTP Knurled 56 Grains IMR 4198 Winchester 209 1" Group  Third Group is all the XTP's together 
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 18:10:48 GMT -5
Four group is 200 SST which is where it gets interesting. I first shot two that had the tan sabot which I now realize I should have shot the Harvestor sabot first. I believe the tan sabot will not work for me and that it really fouled up my barrel causing two unknown shots. Same load only with 200 SST and two tan and two blue sabots  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 18:12:15 GMT -5
Last picture is of a sabot I found after my range session. There was only half of the sabot and I believe it is one of my SST shots that didn't hit paper. I believe the tan sabot is the cause of this blue sabot  RR |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 18:13:23 GMT -5
Is it possible that my gun prefers a cleaner barrel for shooting?? Or did one of the tan sabot just run the rest of the range time? I only shot two of the tan sabots and they were very tight to load.
River Rat
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 18, 2012 19:10:51 GMT -5
How is the loading pressure?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 19:34:59 GMT -5
I don't really have a way to check it other than feel. To me it loads fairly easy compared to what I am used to which would be regular 50 cal shooting blackhorn 209.
When I loaded the tan sabot it seemed rough to me compared to the Harvesters.
River Rat
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 20:09:05 GMT -5
RR..
You're getting close... Good shooting... I'd clean the barrel real good and stick with the blue sabots, and keep your barrel cooled down... You might want to knurl your bullets until you get a real snug fit.. My SMI barrel was loose like yours.. It shot well with a slight knurl and blue sabot... Either the SST or the XTP. It also shot TEZ's right out of the package sabotless well. Good luck, Zen
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 18, 2012 20:19:12 GMT -5
Sounds to me like your bore is loose. Maybe try some .410 bullets.
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Post by Richard on Sept 18, 2012 20:32:44 GMT -5
Riverrat............If you have a bathroom scale, its easy to check your pressure. Just put the butt on the scale and seat a saboted bullet..............(take out the breech plug first). Stick with the smooth blue Harvesters. Just about no one here has gotten their "best" results with the tan mmp's............they work, but generally not as good. Your in the right ballpark now  Richard |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 20:46:35 GMT -5
Couple questions,
The tan sabots tend to not hold up to the pressures we are creating with smokeless correct?
What happens to the tan sabot and would it cause my barrel to be more dirty and cause me to have less accuracy?
Last question what would explain the sabot it the last picture?
River Rat
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Post by Richard on Sept 18, 2012 21:01:26 GMT -5
I have not found the tan sabots to be "dirty?" They just did not produce the accuracy that the blue Harvesters did.
That was a blown sabot! Too much pressure or the barrel was too warm and softened the plastic allowing the pressure to "blow by!"
I ran numerous side by side tests with the same bullet, same primer, same load along with both sabots. Nothing glaring, but group size was always smaller with the blue. I think all Harvesters (both .45 an .50) are tougher sabots than the mmp's? But that is just my opinion..............but I think others might also agree based on scuttle butt from the past ;D
Richard
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 21:11:27 GMT -5
I have not found the tan sabots to be "dirty?" They just did not produce the accuracy that the blue Harvesters did. That was a blown sabot! Too much pressure or the barrel was too warm and softened the plastic allowing the pressure to "blow by!" I ran numerous side by side tests with the same bullet, same primer, same load along with both sabots. Nothing glaring, but group size was always smaller with the blue. I think all Harvesters (both .45 an .50) are tougher sabots than the mmp's? But that is just my opinion..............but I think others might also agree based on scuttle butt from the past ;D Richard With that being said then I am more than likely not waiting long enough between shots. The barrel was some what warm however not near as warm as it has been before. I really have a hard time waiting between shots. I really tried today walking to and from the target checking each shot. Which allowed for about a 3 min wait or so. I just took a Barnes TMZ boattail 45 bullet and tried to push it down the barrel made it about half way and was not able to push any farther. I pushed it back out the other way and then put a little bore butter on it and was able to push it all the way down the barrel. The barrel started off easy and steadily got harder to where I couldn't push any more. If I were to go sabotless would that cause an issue since the pressure it took to push the bullet down the barrel steady got harder?? River Rat |
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Post by dans on Sept 18, 2012 22:51:59 GMT -5
Heat is your enemy when shooting for group. Either use a cool rod or wait more time between shots. At 70 degrees, 10 to 15 minutes is not too long if you are not using a cool rod.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 19, 2012 4:54:51 GMT -5
Looks like you may need one of them nail starters Riverrat ;D
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Post by ET on Sept 19, 2012 5:00:06 GMT -5
78Riverrat I basically agree with Dans post concerning heat and sabots. Even when I get a chance to shoot in 70degree weather with the use of a cooling rod minus the cold pod my wait time is usually10-minutes and more. Also I employ a dry swab immediately after a shot to try and keep the bore friction the same level as much as possible. I know what it is like to be impatient between shots as I went through this phase. But if you really want to know the accuracy of your muzzle-loader you have to overcome this impatience. In the field you are only going fire your first shot from an ambient temp bore condition. Monitoring your first shot placement of the day is important IMO. From my view point you have a good shooting muzzle-loader developing but have yet to fully unlock its potential. Keep at it and you will put it together. Ed |
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Post by mountainam on Sept 19, 2012 6:45:26 GMT -5
78RR, I have always found MMP sabots to be "gummier" than Harvesters and have ONLY had good luck with MMP's .458 x.50 orange sabots. The fact that you have to knurl the .400" bullets tells me that you still need to try some Hornady 210gr .410" XTP's. They are considerably tougher than the .40 200gr XTP's. I'm shooting them in a loose .45 at 2540fps with great accuracy and they perform great at 30 yds and I've have 1 shot kills with complete passthroughs at 220+ yds. Most times your rifle will show you what it likes more than the other way around. Good Shooting!
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Post by whyohe on Sept 19, 2012 6:56:12 GMT -5
to help with the wait between shots i usually take another gun or 2. i take a 22 or my 17 HMR and to some shooting while my savage cools. you can sight in your rifles too. just some thing to do while waiting.
but i agree that the heat is the most likely reason for your sabot failure. take a timer with you that dings or something and set it for 15 min thay way you know for sure you waited long enough. also some one did a study on inner and external barrel temp. IF i remember right the internal temp was higher than the external. so just by touching the barrel may not be enough when you are talking about using a plastic sabot and the damage the heat can do to them.
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