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Post by smokepole on Sept 23, 2009 15:58:03 GMT -5
I bought my savage back in december.I used 250 xtp's i worked up a good load which was 41 grains n110 mmp short black sabot.Then i started using the 250 grain sst's they also shot very well.I havent shot my gun since like march when it was cold untill sept 20 i cant hit a 4 foot by 4 foot sheet of plywood at 20 yards with the sst and the sabot is just like melted hair its destroyed.But with the xtp same 250 grain 41 n110 mmp short black sabot it shoots great.why is the sst's all over the place blowing sabots and the xtp's shooting great?
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 23, 2009 16:29:12 GMT -5
I bought my savage back in december.I used 250 xtp's i worked up a good load which was 41 grains n110 mmp short black sabot.Then i started using the 250 grain sst's they also shot very well.I havent shot my gun since like march when it was cold untill sept 20 i cant hit a 4 foot by 4 foot sheet of plywood at 20 yards with the sst and the sabot is just like melted hair its destroyed.But with the xtp same 250 grain 41 n110 mmp short black sabot it shoots great.why is the sst's all over the place blowing sabots and the xtp's shooting great? I have had the same issue with my 45PCNR. I've been blowing sabots this summer with SST's and BX's, but have never blown an XTP. Personally, I think it's the bullet geometry at the base the bullet flat vs slight boat tail. It could also be the diameter, but I'm inclined to thinking it the base geometry. I would try giving the SST's a light knurl; that seemed to solve the sabot blowing issue for me with BX's. I haven't tried knurling any of the SST's yet. |
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Post by whyohe on Sept 23, 2009 16:43:01 GMT -5
first off the temp from Dec. and now is a big difference i would think, and heat is a BIG factor in blown sabots. what was the temp difference and how long did you wait between shots? did you try the MMP short black sabots with the SSTs? also give you gun a good cleaning before your next range session to clean out plasic fouling that may have occured. how tight did the sbots that came with the SSTs fit?
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Post by smokepole on Sept 23, 2009 17:01:05 GMT -5
What i'm saying is with the same gun same 80 degree temperature same primer same 41 grain n110 same short black mmp sabot same 15 minute wait time i'm blowing sabots and cant hit a 4 foot square at 25 yards with the ssts.and i'm shooting 1 inch groups at 100 yards with good looking shot sabots with the xtps.They both shot well in the colder months.why is the sst blowing sabots?the xtp don't
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Post by pcarpenter on Sept 23, 2009 17:08:38 GMT -5
More bore friciton perhaps? I think the SST's likely have a longer bearing surface, and I would mic the two bullets to see if their diameters (real, not published diameters) are the same to within a few tenths. If the SST's are slightly bigger, more frictional force results and that heats the sabot on the way down the barrel.
Just a thought....
Paul
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Post by Dave W on Sept 23, 2009 17:09:29 GMT -5
I vote with lwh. The XTP base has a 90* corner at the base of the bearing surface where the SST is rounded. The SST also has a thicker jacket at the base than the XTP making it harder to obdurate.
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 23, 2009 17:12:32 GMT -5
More bore friciton perhaps? I think the SST's likely have a longer bearing surface, and I would mic the two bullets to see if their diameters (real, not published diameters) are the same to within a few tenths. If the SST's are slightly bigger, more frictional force results and that heats the sabot on the way down the barrel. Just a thought.... Paul Won't say that doesn't sound plausible, but I thought the SST's & BX's went down with about the same force as the XTP's. Also, I think you'll find that the SST's are smaller in diameter than the XTP's if they're different at all. The sabots that blew with my 45 PCNR were drilled which makes me think it's a diameter/geometry issue. I was blowing sabots left and right with the SST's. I've shot until my barrel has gotten hot with the XTP's and no issues. |
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Post by ET on Sept 23, 2009 17:36:28 GMT -5
For some reason I can't see that happening if the same sabot was used for both bullets. If you used the accompaning sabots with the 250-SST then I can see a difference occuring.
Just never had that issue when trying 250-xtp and 250-sst using the same MMP sabot.
Ed
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Post by smokepole on Sept 23, 2009 21:21:10 GMT -5
I'm using the same sabot with both bullets.The ones that come with the ssts i'm putting aside and not using at all.
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Post by encoreguy on Sept 23, 2009 23:05:47 GMT -5
Are the SST's from the same box that shot good before or is it a new or different box? If not the same, perhaps Hornady changed something like slight rounding or "boat-tailing", slightly different diameter, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they did change something.
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Post by ET on Sept 23, 2009 23:11:43 GMT -5
I'm using the same sabot with both bullets.The ones that come with the ssts i'm putting aside and not using at all. Then I'm about to learn something new when the problem is pin-pointed and revealed. As I said I have never experienced this where the 250-xtp shot well and the 250-SST didn't work. If anything the 250-SST always performed better in my 10ML-II. My previous load that shot well was 250-SST with a trimmed HPH-24 sabot on top of 43gr of 4759 from the can. Ed |
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orion
8 Pointer
Posts: 128
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Post by orion on Sept 24, 2009 8:46:14 GMT -5
I seem to be having a similar experiance. A few weeks ago I fired the 300 grain ssts and had great results. Last weekend I purchased a new pack and tried them and they were like a shot gun at 100 meters. I also bought a pack of 300 grain shockwaves. The shockwaves provided a 1" group, so I know it was not me or the gun, all things were equal more or less, wait time, bench, position, wind, powder charge, etc. Maybee the two bullets are different, I always thought they were the same both the bullets and sabots. One thing I did notice the shockwaves loaded easier and more consistent-one smooth tight push, where the SSTs were varying for some reason from "damm way too tight" to almost easy. I have noticed that bullet sabot combos that load consistently as far as effort required and feel, seem to produce better results for me and my gun.
Maybe Hornady has a bad run of them or the particular sabots used are out of speck.
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Post by Richard on Sept 24, 2009 9:14:36 GMT -5
While I can't comment on the .50 problem, I can respond to Iwh723 on his .45! If you have followed my "range reports", you would see that at 2900+ fps, I have not been blowing sabots?? Other than one occasion a few weeks ago where I might not have left the "cool rod" in quite long enough and the temps were in the high 80's, my sabots are holding up and accuracy is excellent. I firmly believe that heat is the issue. Keep the sabots from getting warm and there is no problem? I can't figure the fact that XTP vs. SST is causing a problem. In the case of yesterdays report I shot both the XTP and SST with no problem and good groups. I have measured both bullets and unless a particularly "bad" batch got past QC at the factory, they measure pretty darn close. Close enough that the average shooter would not see the difference on the target. Just my thoughts!
Richard
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 24, 2009 9:39:36 GMT -5
While I can't comment on the .50 problem, I can respond to Iwh723 on his .45! If you have followed my "range reports", you would see that at 2900+ fps, I have not been blowing sabots?? Other than one occasion a few weeks ago where I might not have left the "cool rod" in quite long enough and the temps were in the high 80's, my sabots are holding up and accuracy is excellent. I firmly believe that heat is the issue. Keep the sabots from getting warm and there is no problem? I can't figure the fact that XTP vs. SST is causing a problem. In the case of yesterdays report I shot both the XTP and SST with no problem and good groups. I have measured both bullets and unless a particularly "bad" batch got past QC at the factory, them measure pretty darn close. Close enough that the average shooter would not see the difference on the target. Just my thoughts! Richard And I would argue that I do not think heat is the underlying issue. Like I said, I've shot my barrel until it’s hot with XTP's and have not blown one. I've had SST's blow after as long as a 30 minue barrel cool. I've also had them not blow (on the same night) 5 minutes after one blew. I really don't have a way to proove it, but if I had to guess, I would say it's a combination of the rounded edge and bullet diameter (or you could also say bore diameter). The SST starts firm, but seats extremely easily in my 45. I believe this allows the sabot to more easily extrude around the bullet when fired. My guess is, the rounded base only augments this. While it probably isn't much give, I would also theorize that when it starts to go, it really goes. I also had sabot blowing problems with the BX (on a very pleasant 70 degree night). After I had just got done blowing like 2 out of 5 shots with the BX's. I ripped off 2 XTP's into an inch at 150 yards as fast as I could load. Since then, I put a knurl on the BX's. Have only had one outing, but I did not blow any, and shot a 1.6” 3 shot group at 150 yards. Will caveat that with I switched from using harvester light blue to the supplied tan sabot as I felt the tan was a better fit. |
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Post by smokepole on Sept 24, 2009 18:52:33 GMT -5
I think i found my problem the sst's are longer bullets and should take a longer sabot but i'm using the short sabot.Although they never blew when it was colder out.The xtp's are short and take the short sabot.they both shot well in the colder months but now that its hot its showing me the short sabot and sst wont take the pressure.
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Post by whyohe on Sept 24, 2009 19:10:46 GMT -5
smokepole, the length shouldn't effect the sabot blowing. alot on this board went to the short cause it loaded with out the longer petals getting caught on the ramrod tip and bending them over or they would actually go around the ram rod tip when loading and make it hard to load. if the only thing that is different is the out side temp, then that is most likely the reason. as to why one and not the other... it could be just that the bullet ACTUAL size is slightly different and the temp softens the sabot enough that the size difference isn't tight enough on the one and now that is blowing the sabot.
also i think one person had the sabots in their car on a sunny day and it soften the sabot and they had problems. so even keeping the sabot cool on hot and sunny days can make a difference.
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Post by smokepole on Sept 24, 2009 20:12:09 GMT -5
I actually measured the sst and xtp and there both 452 exactly and sabots were not in the sun even if the were i shot an xtp the a sst then an xtp. randy wakeman had problems with the sst he told me like when you shoot a barnes bullet you use the longer sabots cuz the bullets longer and the reason savage recomends the short ones is because the xtp's are short and the peddels don'tstick out past the bullet.
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Post by smokepole on Sept 24, 2009 20:15:30 GMT -5
i think the sst's being longer they are not completely surrounded with sabot making them blow sabots a little more so then the xtp.
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Post by ET on Sept 24, 2009 21:15:32 GMT -5
Smokepole
This has been one interesting problem and after beating this around in my head I can only conceive one hypothetical answer because I can’t really prove it in some tangible form.
Rounded base of SST + plastic of sabot has reached a specific softness point for flowing/conforming.
Starting with a basic concept that the function of the sabot base is to flare and contain the hot expending gases behind it. Now if that flaring was delayed because the sabot base is first trying to form to the base of the bullet hot gases could have a chance to create a path/s around the sabot base. OR through the sabot base trying to form to the bullet’s base it’s integrity has in some way been compromised allowing hot gas bypass.
These gases would definitely shred the petals and eventually the base by a term used “gas-cutting”.
As temperature drops the plastic of the sabot firms up making it less pliable to forming. So obviously heat/temperature along with sabot to bullet fit plays a vital role for performance.
This may seem off the wall and if anyone sees a more plausible answer chime in.
Ed
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Post by whyohe on Sept 24, 2009 21:15:52 GMT -5
HMMM ! well it was just a thought. the only way IMO that the length being short would create a problem is if it was short on the bearing surface by a good bit, (I can be wrong). and i thought the SSTs fit good in that way.  I'm curios as to why now this is the first ive heard of this. good luck! if the XTps are working go with that. |
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Post by smokepole on Sept 25, 2009 7:36:17 GMT -5
Thanx et i think your right.since the bullet weight,sabots,cooling time between shots on the same day,powder charge and everything is the same youve got to be right.It just kinda blew my mind that they both shot well in the 30 degree wheather and the warmer wheather affected the sst with short sabot and not the xtp.
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Post by whyohe on Sept 25, 2009 8:36:45 GMT -5
well said ET. we posted at the same time and i missed it sounds plausable to me.
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Post by Harley on Sept 25, 2009 8:36:48 GMT -5
Interesting thread, everyone's analysis made sense, but I think Ed has it right.
Harley
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Post by deerhunter on Sept 25, 2009 20:24:18 GMT -5
I just talked to Bob parker today on muzzleloading bullets ,he said thy did sell by the bulk on all of them $50 dollars for 50 or $85 for 100 the biger orders cheaper. He said he wood make what ever bore size you need. I got his cell phone #208-596-8430, I am getting a few different sizes .448 up to see what my 45 pac nor bore best fits for sabotless. I am going to order a hundred for hunting season of Hydra con,if they shoot good. Deerhunter
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Post by kevin k on Sept 25, 2009 20:42:46 GMT -5
deerhunter my barrel is a 457dia and the 450.5 the way they are shoot so you might want to try there first isnt yours a 458dia? kevin k
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Post by deerhunter on Sept 25, 2009 21:07:04 GMT -5
kevin k My barrel is a 458dia Deerhunter
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Post by topusmc on Sept 26, 2009 7:01:24 GMT -5
8-)GET RID OF THE SAVAGE, GET AN ENCORE, SHOOT THOR BULLETS, NO SABOTS, NO HEAT PROBLEMS, GOOD ENOUGH SPEED, GROUPS BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE CAN SHOOT, PROBLEM SOLVED.
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Post by kevin k on Sept 26, 2009 7:07:41 GMT -5
come on now wrong board topusmc. you realy think a shot gun frame is better? id put ether my 45 or 50 up against it. do it at the range all the time. kevin k
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Post by smokeeter on Sept 26, 2009 7:12:42 GMT -5
My shilen .458 1:14 barrel mics .4505
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Post by boarhog on Sept 26, 2009 9:24:26 GMT -5
I have had 0 blown sabots, even when shooting at over 100*. I've tried with and without a .060 veggie wad, mostly with. I wonder if the wad would make a diff on the load that Smokepole has had trouble with?
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I'm curios as to why now this is the first ive heard of this. good luck! if the XTps are working go with that.
