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Post by 30calrifle on Nov 19, 2010 16:47:21 GMT -5
>:(After hearing that the greatest modern muzzle loader is being discontinued, I was shocked, then angry. At first I was mad at Savage and Ronald Coburn, CEO. Then I did some investigating on the web about the various factors as to why this happened. 1) Was it based on economic factors?. I seriously doubt that. It was priced high, but it was in demand by serious shooters. 2) Liability? Blow up guns? Probably a small piece of the puzzle. As dedicated shooters we all know how some individiuals shouldn't even own .22 rimfires. My best quess is Toby Bridges, he killed the gun with his inflamitory claims about how unsafe the gun is. And now you have it, google his articles about blow up guns, what firearms mfg. or CEO would continue that model? I'm afraid the answer is no one. Henry Ball must have cried when he got the news earlier this year. I did. Thanks Toby, thanks a lot. I plan to buy a breach plug, vent liners, and a spare barrel once they've been dumped at Numerich Arms. Thanks Toby.  |
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lundy
8 Pointer
Posts: 182
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Post by lundy on Nov 19, 2010 17:23:11 GMT -5
Toby who?
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Post by edge on Nov 19, 2010 17:27:13 GMT -5
Ridiculous!
This has been out for so many years that it is nauseating.
Never enough sales, plain and simple!
Did he cause some lost sales, sure.
States not allowing smokeless and Savage not doing enough promotion are the main causes!
The guy that started the Subway chain of shops was losing money with his first store so what did he do.....he opened a few more!
Advertising was never very big with the ML.
edge.
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Post by dannoboone on Nov 19, 2010 17:58:48 GMT -5
30cal, it's time to move on. If you believe TB is a dirt-bag, you're
in plenty of company, but no amount of mud-slinging is going to
bring back the 10MLII.
The amount of knowledge on this board, coupled with other
sources can help make smokeless ML's even better than the
Savage. It can be done by anyone who can just put the parts
together. It has been done successfully by several people in
the past, and several of us are currently in the process of doing
so now.
Personally, I'm going to put one together for less than 1K, which
is little more than the last MSRP for the laminated stainless
10MLII.
You could probably do the same, assuming you have a little
mechanical ability.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 19, 2010 18:00:10 GMT -5
Amen to each word by Edge.
P.S. Toby is a fine gent, and before his falling out with Savage, he did more to promote the Savage than anyone before or since. I bought my first Savage in 01 after reading a story by him. And to yes, to this day I confer with him about smokeless shooting
He was the go to guy for Savage. Did there load testing and was a one man tech service, In those days when you had a problem, and called Savage tech department they gave you Toby's home number.
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Post by petev on Nov 19, 2010 19:07:08 GMT -5
Right on, Edge. The Savage ML wasn't promoted, and was a little more expensive than the competition, and was probably somewhat over-complicated or technical for many of the public who just wanted a reliable hunting rifle, IMO of course.
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Post by boarhog on Nov 19, 2010 21:29:29 GMT -5
I would think that the major competition for the ML2 was the TC series. I considered buying a TC Pro Hunter for a while, but just couldn't convince myself to pay between $8-900.00 for a single shot break action. Then I started hearing about lots of TC owners that were having problems getting expected accuracy out of them. I talked with a gun club member at the range that told me he owned several, and automatically installed a custom action pin before firing the first shot. Even then, he said he sent several back to TC due to poor accuracy. Along about the same time, one of my shooting buddies bought a TC Contender in 30-30. Guys, I had a 70s model Win 94 that wouldn't consistently hit a 5 gal bucket at 70 yards, and it shot better than my friends TC! I don't really think that price had all that much to do with the Savage decision. Even Knight, until they came out with the cheaper models, were selling their Disc rifles for $5-800.00.
IMHO, the main shortcoming was their lack of advertising/promotion. Just watch almost any hunting show on television. A significant majority are using TC. I am not privilege to what went on behind office doors, but I assume that a huge amount of $$$ was, and is, spent keeping TCs in the hands of guys like Jim Shockey. I suspect that similar deals may have something to do with his touting the American Pioneer powder, even though every unbiased comparison test I have read, clearly rate it below almost every other black powder substitute. To get John Q Public to accept/desire a revolutionary new product, it's all about public perception. If a large percentage of the TV Hot Shots had converted to, and were using, the Savage ML-2, I'll bet they would be having trouble keeping up with demand.
I am sure that other unknown factors very likely came into play as well. There have been lots of good products that disappeared, due to use-of-resource decisions. Widget 2 was tanked because it's manufacture took one extra step, or the bean counters decided that the personnel, and machinery, could be more profitably applied to Widget 1 since they sold more of them.
I am sorry to see it happen, but life does go on.
Boarhog
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Post by cfvickers on Nov 19, 2010 23:48:14 GMT -5
For one, I would never want Toby Bridges to have any claim to the demise of the 10Ml. Two, After his whole story was told, both sides, he has since been widely disregarded. Muzzle loaders are strange creatures to a lot of people, and a ton of misconceptions exist even about the old style ones. to the average shooter a Smokeless ML is just not really feasible in their eyes. they have taken pains to learn how to deal with a BP gun and the differences in loading a smokeless guin and the perceived uncertainty that goes with smokeless powder (the thought that if anything goes wrong it could blow up in their face, be it real or imagined) is just too much for the average hunter. If you cannot market a muzzle loader to the average hunter, it can't be marketed. MLs are a much smaller market than rifles, and where the regular rifle market can specialize and flourish, MLs are just a different animal. Where those of us brought up around MLs see this as a great step forward, your "average hunters" see it as another hassle. Granted if they only knew what they were missing many would have come on board, but plain fact is they don't.
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Post by cfvickers on Nov 20, 2010 0:00:34 GMT -5
You have to realize that the "average hunters" that I speak of give no thought to a Muzzleloader between 5 january and 1 October. On 1 October they go and try to fire the load they last put in it before they just left it loaded all year, give it a "good swabbing out" load it and fire one shot to make sure they can still hit an 8 inch pie plate at about 50 yards, show all their buddies if they get anywhere near the center, quick swab, load it and call it good. Most will fire that shot and miss a deer and give some ignorant excuse that amounts to "muzzleloaders are just not that accurate but oh well" then reload it with no swabbing out and at the end of ML season stick it back in the closet till next year.
Looking at it from that perspective, why would that guy spend 600+ on a muzzle loader when he is not totally convinced it will give him any better luck than the old one, then he would have to buy all this new powders and measures and bullets to go with it. It just isn't somthing you can market to the average guy and there are not enough ML enthusiasts interested in a new style ML, especially one that shoots smokeless powder. So you get a cult following but no sustainable market.
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Post by ourway77 on Nov 20, 2010 8:17:19 GMT -5
Well I am sorry to hear of Savage stopping production of the ML'erII. I am sure it has nothing to do with the fact some have claimed foul and they had a couple blow up. No one can say what really happened? Could the rifle have been tied to a tree and fired? One I heard measured smokeless powder with a devise used for black powder. This is the extent of what I've heard. There will be a run for your money for people trying to get one of the remaining Savages that are still around. Good Luck everyone. Lou
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Post by 30calrifle on Nov 20, 2010 11:34:56 GMT -5
Yes,
It is time to move on, and the comments recieved here are encouraging for the future of smokeless muzzleloading.
Still, TB didn't help any towards the end.
MHO
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Post by cfvickers on Nov 20, 2010 23:39:20 GMT -5
I can assure you there have been far more ML disasters involving black powder MLs than smokeless. I would bet there have been more even per unit sold. People are always going to make mistakes and these mistakes are sometimes disastrous and can be fatal. I have not heard of anyone dying from a savage blowup at least. Knock on wood.
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